Guest Len B'stard Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Thanks for that Graeme, i had no idea of most of that, particularly the massive irish connection to Scotish society and history. Really mean that, cleared up a lot for me, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NGOG Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) I was expecting a long-winded rant from you Graeme. Despite saying you disagree with me - and insultingly insinuating that I'm naive to the reality - you haven't disputed any of my points (instead seizing an opportunity to flaunt your textbook learning). What you aren't aware of is that my grandfather spent his entire life living and working in Scotland and my aunt was born there. As you pointed out, Celtic initially formed as a sort of pseuo-charity to support the Irish immigrants who faced hostilities by Scottish society. Despite the fact in previous centuries a Scottish contingent was physically planted in Ireland (ultimately disrupting the mandate for Irish indepencence in the north indefinitely). Celtic are an entirely different club nowadays -- as are Hibs (you conveniently omit their Irish foundations). Are you aware the famous Lisbon Lions all hailed from one small radius of Scotland? Imagine that; an entirely Glaswegian Celtic winning football's great honour. Are you prepared to acknowledge the only reason the flag of St. Andrew isn't flown at Parkhead is because of its colours? That does not diminish the independence mandate amongst the following.It's an insult to Tommy Burns/Paul Lambert/Billy McNeill/Paul McStay etc. etc. when you say they represented nothing more than an offshore Republic of Ireland team. Clearly while Celtic retains a degree of Irish identity; it is a modern Scottish football club. The Scottish champions no less.While you may delude yourself into believing Ibrox shares the Republican/quasi-socialist values of Graeme - and that its right-wing brigade is confined to an isolated minority - you're wrong. It is a club of the establishment. Xenophobic/monarchy loving/British Army supporting/Loyalist loving; end of story. Edited October 24, 2013 by NGOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) That image choice was a bit selective, pal:I'm sorry if you were insulted by my post. Regardless of our positions on either side of this particular divide, I do actually like you and a lot of the contributions you make to this board.If you read what I said, it was that Celtic started as the club of a migrant community. I did acknowledge that subsequent generations were as Scottish as anyone else born and raised here, so I don't really see how I was insulting any of the Celtic players who won in Lisbon... But you're arguing that despite being uncomfortable with flying their own flag due to its colours, Celtic's "Scottishness" is more valid than Rangers'. I don't think so.I didn't bring up Hibs' roots because it didn't even occur to me that they were relevant in this discussion.If Rangers are inherently right-wing and the club of the "establishment" majority then ask yourself why the establishment in Scotland has been left-of centre for the last 60 years? The Tory vote in Scotland nowadays is miniscule, the Rangers support certainly aren't. It's just not that black and white, you can't look at someone and say: "Rangers fan = Tory, Protestant, Loyalist, Unionist". That's not the case in the vast majority of instances I've experienced, I could probably count the number of Scottish tories I know on two hands. I know a lot of Rangers fans. Modern Scottish society doesn't work like that; you can't divide it neatly along compartmentalised community lines, it's too intermixed and there are too many complex social issues at play.There are a minority of horrible people in the Rangers support and to be honest I probably hate them more than you do for dragging our club's name through the mud, but your statement at the end, painting the club and all its fans with a brush that makes out we're all terrible human beings is just nonsense. Many of that hardline minority bemoan the fact that Ibrox nowadays is full of what they call "Handwringers" (i.e. people who just go along for the football and have no interest in singing about Loyalism etc). That holds true for about 80% of the stadium, otherwise I wouldn't go, I have no desire to stand up and be counted amongst those eejits, but I am perfectly happy to do so amongst the family and friends I have at the stadium who are all decent, tolerant, ordinary people... As I'm sure you'll find with the majority of people around you at Parkhead, but Celtic have a similar minority of arseholes, my mate (a Celtic fan) was spat on because he was wearing a blue shirt (his work's uniform) on a train crowded with Celtic fans, a gang of Celtic-supporting neds stood around my 8 year old little brother and spat on him on the way to an Old Firm game once, I've had "soon there will be no more Protestants" sung obnoxiously in my face, and seen a man accosted in public for wearing a Poppy, also, look at the damage which was done to Dens' Park by a small number of Celtic fans last year... You probably don't think it's reasonable to judge Celtic Football Club based on the actions of those guys, and you're right, it isn't.My point is that both supports are made up of ordinary people, good and bad. Both sides have social issues that they need to address, but I don't claim that Celtic is an evil institution or that the majority of its fans are monsters because that's untrue. I'd appreciate it if you considered the possibility that's the same for Rangers fans.As for British army supporting, that's not the antithesis of the movement for Scottish Independence, given that this is the official badge of the Yes Campaign at the moment:With the Poppy appeal being launched by well-known left-wing nationalist republicans, the Proclaimers: http://news.stv.tv/scotland/244865-flower-power-the-proclaimers-to-launch-scottish-poppy-appeal/.Do you see what I mean by the fact that the community lines in Scotland are blurred and attempting to pigeon-hole an entire group of people in the manner you attempted in your last post just doesn't hold water? Edited October 24, 2013 by Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) a gang of Celtic-supporting neds stood around my 8 year old little brother and spat on himReally?!?! Shoulda found em and wrapped a bar round their heads..cunts.. Edited October 24, 2013 by sugaraylen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris1989 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I prefer Hibs to both teams anyway Some great nights watching them in the Cup on Channel 5 when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Wait and see what happens I suppose - I wonder how much further it can stagnate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NGOG Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) That image choice was a bit selective, pal:But Graeme, in order for 2/4 of Ibrox to be covered by the Butcher's Apron, there has to be a sizeable contingent which approves of such an explicit representation. But you're arguing that despite being uncomfortable with flying their own flag due to its colours, Celtic's "Scottishness" is more valid than Rangers'. I don't think so.Why must Celtic drape itself in the flag of St. Andrew to be actively Scottish? By juxtaposing the national flag with the flag of Her Majesty's Union, Rangers are undoing any legitimate nationalism.If Rangers are inherently right-wing and the club of the "establishment" majority then ask yourself why the establishment in Scotland has been left-of centre for the last 60 years? By 'establishment' I'm not referring to the national government, clearly. The SFA etc. And who mentioned the Tories? The reality is that on issues affecting the Old Firm - the Act of Union, Northern Ireland, wider political connotations like Israel/Palestine - Rangers are generally inclined to a rightist position. Celtic have a similar minority of arseholesAbsolutely. I don't agree with the glorification of the IRA, for example. Also, I was at a game during the war in Afghanistan when the board requested a minute's silence for the serving boys who lost their lives (not the war itself, not the British government). While I may politicallly disagree with those wars, I stood to honour those brave boys who go and stand in front of suicide bombers/mines/heavy artillery. I was appalled by those who chose to boo. But equally I can cite many instances where Rangers fan have shamed themselves. When I was at the Old Firm game where Lenny and Ally had a confrontation, a gang of men gathered outside our hotel in the city waiting for any Tim stragglers to savage. It was a really eery experience just looking at them waiting. Do I have to remind you of Manchester?But anyway, I'm hardly going to convert a lifelong bluenose. Likewise, you're talking to a Tim brick wall. I'm a fan of your posts too by the way, each to their own? Edited October 24, 2013 by NGOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 2-0 to The Arsenal And Utd trail stoke inside of 4 minutes off a Crouch header, BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK SUBS Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Off to Sunderland V Newcastle game tomorrow through hospitality -- Posting sober for final time this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Didn't know you was from them ends Subsy, Magpie or Mackem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK SUBS Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Didn't know you was from them ends Subsy, Magpie or Mackem?Neither I hate them both -- Im with Dazey buddy, The Mighty Boro'I have mates who are fans of both (mainly Newcastle) and I'll be getting hammered and hoping they both loose failing that I hope the ref has a good game I've been invited the last 3 seasons as my friend is the commercial Director at SAFC -- Last season at SOL, I was having a meal in the posh restaurant before kick off and in walked Jim Montgommry (Sunderland keeper in '73 cup final - youtube his save versus Leeds Utd mate, batter than the Banks save versus Pele, imo), Nail Quinn and Peter Reid -- I saw them coming and thought wow, that's pretty cool (bear in mind the restaurant hold about....... 600 people?) anyway, they headed over to our table and said Paul ???? and I was like "erm....yes" we would like to give you a Sunderland strip signed by all the lads from the 1973 cup final and everyone clapped. TRANSPIRED, Gary (Director) set it up as he knew as a Boro fan I would die a million deaths!! He was right, I gave the shirt away to a work friend who's son is 7 and a massive Sunderland fan.So, tomorrow I'm talking my family as a thank you (long boring story but they've been super supportive recently and I'm off away for a few weeks soon) so we'll see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK SUBS Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZmFoo4payA&feature=player_detailpage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Fuck me Subsy, what do you do for a living then?On topic:2-1 to Stoke, Van Persies leveller is cancelled out, oh dear dear dear *holds back laughter* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moreblack Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 It all worked out in the end.Now on to El Clasico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Get in there Barca, 1-0 up in 20 mins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moreblack Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 When will Neymar's struggles in Europe end?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris1989 Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 North London impact on El Classico - Arsenal beating Spuds again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) When will Neymar's struggles in Europe end?!?When Gareth Bales success starts Something really bothered you about people saying Neymar would have trouble in Europe eh, you keep going on about it Edited October 26, 2013 by sugaraylen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moreblack Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 When will Neymar's struggles in Europe end?!?When Gareth Bales success starts Something really bothered you about people saying Neymar would have trouble in Europe eh, you keep going on about it It's just funny to me how much it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 I'm enjoying Gareth Bales struggles myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moreblack Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 There's money well spent, coupled with selling Ozil, just an awesome transfer season for Madrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Standard though. Money breeds complacency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Best header of the weekend - Rooney or Suarez?I think that Rooney's was such a dainty flick, but Suarez's was just a bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len B'stard Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Best header of the weekend - Rooney or Suarez?I think that Rooney's was such a dainty flick, but Suarez's was just a bullet.Giroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sandman Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Love the graphic saying 17 yards out... on the edge of the penalty area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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