Game of Thrones Season 6 Discussion Thread *No Spoilers*

[Georgy Zhukov]

I don't really give a fuck about Cersei. She deserves every bad thing that happens to her. Hope Nate doesn't see this.

Littlefinger helped destroy the Seven Kingdoms. It looks like the Iron Bank of Braavos will make its appearence, which is where Littlefinger is getting the money from. They can buy Castery Rock with their money.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Forsaken

[downzy]

George R.R. Martin on the differences between the book and the show in regards to the scene with Cersei and her brother:

"I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons."

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/04/22/nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-that-controversial-jaime-cersei-scene-from-game-of-thrones-breaker-of-chains-episode

[Tater Totts]

There has been quite the backlash regarding the scene. Doesn't really help that in S1 when Dany and Drogo first got together he raped her as well while in the books he didn't.

[downzy]

There has been quite the backlash regarding the scene. Doesn't really help that in S1 when Dany and Drogo first got together he raped her as well while in the books he didn't.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are missing the fact that several of the scenes have been modified for the revision have been more gratuitous and depraved. As shocking as it was, I never heard much complaint about Rob's wife getting stabbed in her pregnant belly. While I haven't read the books, my girlfriend (who has read them) tells me that the show is much more brutal in general (though there are a few exceptions). This is just one more scene where that trend is continued.

The book nerds really need to relax about this kind of stuff.

[Georgy Zhukov]

So, the season four premiere is the highest grossing paid network viewing since The Sopranos finale. I think this can go on to season 7.

There has been quite the backlash regarding the scene. Doesn't really help that in S1 when Dany and Drogo first got together he raped her as well while in the books he didn't.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are missing the fact that several of the scenes have been modified for the revision have been more gratuitous and depraved. As shocking as it was, I never heard much complaint about Rob's wife getting stabbed in her pregnant belly. While I haven't read the books, my girlfriend (who has read them) tells me that the show is much more brutal in general (though there are a few exceptions). This is just one more scene where that trend is continued.

The book nerds really need to relax about this kind of stuff.

Not to mention that Dany is suppose to be 16 and any minor getting raped/having sex is horrifying to watch in the States.

But then again, the first season of Game of Thrones wasn't as watched. Season two brought in more viewers, especially after Blackwater, and season three brought even even more with The Reigns of Castamere. So when the most anticipated show of the year, which IMO has taken the place of Breaking Bad since The Walking Dead has lost its edge, shows a scene depicted a rather aggressive sex scene, people will talk.

Knowing Cersei's character, It was not rape.

[Broskirose]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care about that scene much at all?

[Georgy Zhukov]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care about that scene much at all?

I don't. I've seen worse shit on this show. I was more impressed with Ygritte's bow. Bitch is deadly.

[downzy]

So, the season four premiere is the highest grossing paid network viewing since The Sopranos finale. I think this can go on to season 7.

There has been quite the backlash regarding the scene. Doesn't really help that in S1 when Dany and Drogo first got together he raped her as well while in the books he didn't.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are missing the fact that several of the scenes have been modified for the revision have been more gratuitous and depraved. As shocking as it was, I never heard much complaint about Rob's wife getting stabbed in her pregnant belly. While I haven't read the books, my girlfriend (who has read them) tells me that the show is much more brutal in general (though there are a few exceptions). This is just one more scene where that trend is continued.

The book nerds really need to relax about this kind of stuff.

Not to mention that Dany is suppose to be 16 and any minor getting raped/having sex is horrifying to watch in the States.

Knowing Cersei's character, It was not rape.

a) It's only horrifying to watch a minor get raped/having sex in the States and not elsewhere?

b) Yeah, she definitely wanted it; just like what every other rapist tells themselves.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Oh, I was just speaking from where I am. I don't know much of the mindsets of people in other parts of the modern world. Sorry you mistook it. I am sure sex with a minor is a hanous crime in most places. Except maybe France. Dirty frog eating bastards.

[bran]

the scene didn't bother me, i was just wondering why the change, which martin seemed to shine some light on.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Dude was horny.

[Tater Totts]

Yeah, he kept getting denied by Cersei while she is fucking everyone but him.

His blue balls must have been bad, especially after he lost his "sword" hand.

[downzy]

Oh, I was just speaking from where I am. I don't know much of the mindsets of people in other parts of the modern world. Sorry you mistook it. I am sure sex with a minor is a hanous crime in most places. Except maybe France. Dirty frog eating bastards.

I was just having fun with the wording of your post. I knew what you meant but it made me laugh...

[Guest NGOG]

To a modern audience, it may be percieved as rape. Not because it was a rape, but because we are very concious of women's sexual liberty (and rightfully so).

Cersei was sexually willing, but rejected Jamie's advances because of the sheer awfulness of having sex with your brother in front of your son's corpse (and in a sacred building no less). That said, Cersei doesn't necessarily resist due to immorality, but because of the damage it would do to her public image. She is a wretched character that seeks to preserve her vision at any cost.

But admist all this, did she find herself reluctantly pleasured? Certainly. Does that speak poorly of me as a person for observing that? No - it just shows that I understand how depraved Martin's narrative can be.

Edited April 22, 2014 by NGOG

[***Flawless]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

[Guest NGOG]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

It's just fiction, calm yourself.

What you're failing to understand is that Cersei's every thought revolves around bettering her chances at full power. She says 'No, it's inapproriate' - which actually translates as yes I would have sex with you, but this context is far too dangerous for my public image.

[downzy]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

It's just fiction, calm yourself.

What you're failing to understand is that Cersei's every thought revolves around bettering her chances at full power. She says 'No, it's inapproriate' - which actually translates as yes I would have sex with you, but this context is far too dangerous for my public image.

Whether she was up for it if the conditions were more appropriate is irrelevant. No offence man, but you're on very shaky ground with this line of thinking...

Edited April 22, 2014 by downzy

[Tater Totts]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

It's just fiction, calm yourself.

What you're failing to understand is that Cersei's every thought revolves around bettering her chances at full power. She says 'No, it's inapproriate' - which actually translates as yes I would have sex with you, but this context is far too dangerous for my public image.

Disagree. Cersei turned him down last week and said he had been gone too long and it was heavily implied she had moved on as she thought he might be dead.

In the show it was clearly rape, most of my friends who have read the book also said it was rape because it played out completely differently to the book where Cersei eventually gave some form on consent. Every single friend who hasn't read the book also thought it was rape and looking at it objectively there is no indication that Cersei wants it.

[***Flawless]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

It's just fiction, calm yourself.

What you're failing to understand is that Cersei's every thought revolves around bettering her chances at full power. She says 'No, it's inapproriate' - which actually translates as yes I would have sex with you, but this context is far too dangerous for my public image.

The show may just be fiction but the fact that you saw the scene in that way, shows a very worrying way of thinking in reality.

As soon as Cersei sad "no, stop", that's exactly what he should've done.

I also fail to see how her image would be tarnished? There was no one there to see them? Unless you count the corpse of their dead son, and although I'm no doctor, I can pretty much guarantee that he wouldn't be able to say anything.

[Guest NGOG]

Shocked by what some of you are saying, that mostly certainly was rape... simple as that. She said no and tried to push him away, but he persisted. I'm actually sickened.

It's just fiction, calm yourself.

What you're failing to understand is that Cersei's every thought revolves around bettering her chances at full power. She says 'No, it's inapproriate' - which actually translates as yes I would have sex with you, but this context is far too dangerous for my public image.

Whether she was up for it if the conditions were more appropriate is irrelevant. No offence man, but you're on very shaky ground with this line of thinking...

Come off it Downz, we're discussing historical fantasy here, not rational thought. I'm disappointed that you would compare my interpretation of the former, to my views on women's sexual liberty.

She was not objecting to Jamie's advances, she was just concious of being caught having sex with her brother in front of her son's corpse (because her whole thought process is dictated by consolidating her power - not because she doesn't want to have sex with Jamie). If you read her POV, I think you'll be more accepting of what I'm saying.

[Tater Totts]

She was not objecting to Jamie's advances, she was just concious of being caught having sex with her brother in front of her son's corpse (because her whole thought process is dictated by consolidating her power - not because she doesn't want to have sex with Jamie). If you read her POV, I think you'll be more accepting of what I'm saying.

Perfect example of what I meant by book characters not being the same as show characters as the context is different.

In the books Cersei and Jaime haven't seen each other for months, the first time they see each other is in the sept while she is mourning Joffrey and even then Jaime forces himself upon her and she initially rejects his advances before giving into him.

On the show Cersei and Jaime have been in King's Landing together for weeks since they were reunited, Cersei turned Jaime down in private the episode before and made it clear she wasn't interested. He rapes her and at no point does she consent unlike in the books.

The context in the book and show is different and Cersei's book POV doesn't mean anything since the show isn't the book and vice versa. As a book reader I was surprised by the scene because it is extremely different from what happens in the book and I was stunned that it wasn't even left ambiguous as to whether Cersei consented in the show, they easily could have added a couple of Cersei's lines from the book such as saying "Yes Jaime, do it", to make it clear there was consent but the fact they made the active decision to leave those out makes it clear to me that they wanted it to come across as rape.

[Guest NGOG]

The show may just be fiction but the fact that you saw the scene in that way, shows a very worrying way of thinking in reality.

As soon as Cersei sad "no, stop", that's exactly what he should've done.

I also fail to see how her image would be tarnished? There was no one there to see them? Unless you count the corpse of their dead son, and although I'm no doctor, I can pretty much guarantee that he wouldn't be able to say anything.

Haha, your psychoanalysis gave me a giggle. It doesn't infer anything about the way I percieve depravity, it just shows that I understand GOT doesn't approach depravity in a conventional way. Martin is constantly writing questionable thought-processes - it's historical fantasy.

I fail to see how you fail to see the potential implications of having sex with your brother in front of your son's corpse (which resides in a holy house, and is actually your brother's son too). The Lannister secret is less and less disbelieved, and Cersei's clutch on power is waning. Anybody could walk in at any given time, and as Varys said, nothing is unheard in King's Landing. Least of all sex between royal siblings.

[Guest NGOG]

So I just looked up what the director had to say, I guess he has a disturbed mind like mine (or isn't trying to adapt historical fantasy into modern day reality):

'The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and shes holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in whats going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, shes way into kissing him back. Shes kissing him aplenty.'

[Tater Totts]

Well he did a shitty job then based on how many people have complained about it

[***Flawless]

No part of it was consensual, he's just trying to save face. Even GRRM had a problem with it but being involved with the show to some degree, he can't outright say it.

She said "no", therefore it is rape.

The show may just be fiction but the fact that you saw the scene in that way, shows a very worrying way of thinking in reality.

As soon as Cersei sad "no, stop", that's exactly what he should've done.

I also fail to see how her image would be tarnished? There was no one there to see them? Unless you count the corpse of their dead son, and although I'm no doctor, I can pretty much guarantee that he wouldn't be able to say anything.

Haha, your psychoanalysis gave me a giggle. It doesn't infer anything about the way I percieve depravity, it just shows that I understand GOT doesn't approach depravity in a conventional way. Martin is constantly writing questionable thought-processes - it's historical fantasy.

I fail to see how you fail to see the potential implications of having sex with your brother in front of your son's corpse (which resides in a holy house, and is actually your brother's son too). The Lannister secret is less and less disbelieved, and Cersei's clutch on power is waning. Anybody could walk in at any given time, and as Varys said, nothing is unheard in King's Landing. Least of all sex between royal siblings.

Yes it does, you seem to think that although Cersei said no, she really did want it. Stop bringing Martin into this, as you've clearly misunderstood his words about this scene. He wrote in his books that Cersei consented, in the show, she did not. Therefore any argument you are trying to make about a scene in the show, using the book is moot.

Who would walk in? I do realise what that would do to her reputation but, seriously who? Jaime dismissed the only people who actually had a place in there, Tywin and Tommen had walked off, plus any guard would be stupid to speak against the Lannisters.