Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

[magisme]

There's never a burden of proof on anyone to prove they DIDN'T do something. Ever.

And your views on the US are myopic at best. Use the google machine. It's easy as hell to find all the actual proof that what you say is incorrect. Except for the most money thing, which is ridiculous, as I pointed out earlier, because speaking scale is absurd. You want me to start naming the nasty shit the US spends more money than anyone else on?

Edited July 23, 2014 by magisme

[Ace Nova]

There's never a burden of proof on anyone to prove they DIDN'T do something. Ever.

And your views on the US are myopic at best. Use the google machine. It's easy as hell to find all the actual proof that what you say is incorrect. Except for the most money thing, which is ridiculous, as I pointed out earlier, because speaking scale is absurd. You want me to start naming the nasty shit the US spends more money than anyone else on?

Burden of proof may have been a poor choice of words. But ask yourself, if a gun was held to your head, asking you to determine who shot the plane down between the Ukraine or the rebels...who would you pick?. If you choose correctly, you live, if not, you die. Answer that. (no need to reveal who you picked, just be honest with yourself).

That's my point.

[Ace Nova]

who is holding the gun???

It doesn't matter who's holding the gun. It could be a robot for all I care. Has nothing to do with the question or point I'm making.

[downzy]

It's tough to determine who was at fault here, simple as both sides have a history of problems telling the truth in regards to these kinds of incidents.

What's not helping the Russian argument is how disingenuous they were when they annexed Crimea. Also not helping their case is the fact that pro-Russian rebels have been in control of the crash site, which has been heavily tampered with if you believe the newly arrived independent experts.

Not helping the U.S. side is it's unwillingness to provide actual photographic/video evidence not derived from either the Ukrainian government or social media. Also, the 2003 Iraq War isn't far from everyone's minds.

I think it's premature for anyone to conclusively say that one side is definitely at fault.

[magisme]

There's never a burden of proof on anyone to prove they DIDN'T do something. Ever.

And your views on the US are myopic at best. Use the google machine. It's easy as hell to find all the actual proof that what you say is incorrect. Except for the most money thing, which is ridiculous, as I pointed out earlier, because speaking scale is absurd. You want me to start naming the nasty shit the US spends more money than anyone else on?

Burden of proof may have been a poor choice of words. But ask yourself, if a gun was held to your head, asking you to determine who shot the plane down between the Ukraine or the rebels...who would you pick?. If you choose correctly, you live, if not, you die. Answer that. (no need to reveal who you picked, just be honest with yourself).

That's my point.

I'm fine with that point. And I've never said the rebels didn't do it. And I've never said I thought Ukraine did it. Gun to my head? Rebels. But I'm not going to form opinions based on shit I don't know and hypothetical guns to my head.

[Ace Nova]

I think it's premature for anyone to conclusively say that one side is definitely at fault.

I'm not saying that. I'm just going by logic and history...and that being the case, I'm leaning (heavily) towards the rebels doing this. It's not 100% but close, imo.

[Ace Nova]

who is holding the gun???

It doesn't matter who's holding the gun. It could be a robot for all I care. Has nothing to do with the question or point I'm making.

Ok Im holding the gun, who you gonna choose?

It doesn't matter because whoever is holding the gun knows the truth. So you would have to go by the truth and the truth only.

[arnold layne]

This is petty bullshit.

Come over and nuke us hooray for tolerance!s. Right now it's just stupid shit to get the media stirred up. If countries want war, well they gotta try harder than that.

[downzy]

I think it's premature for anyone to conclusively say that one side is definitely at fault.

I'm not saying that. I'm just going by logic and history...and that being the case, I'm leaning (heavily) towards the rebels doing this. It's not 100% but close, imo.

Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it, I agree with Ratbrain that calling upon logic and history is not going to help your argument. Though I don't believe President Obama would make the same mistakes his predecessor committed with respect to basing foreign policy decisions on trumped up charges, the U.S. isn't in the greatest position to claim the higher ground with respect to intelligence authenticity.

With that said, if I were a betting man, I'd probably go with this assessment:

Intercepted calls released by the Ukrainian government included separatist leaders in Eastern Ukraine claiming credit on July 17 for what they thought was the shoot-down of a Ukrainian military aircraft, only to later discover they had destroyed a civilian airliner and murdered the innocent people inside. Ukrainian government intercepts also purport to reveal Ukrainian separatists acknowledging they controlled SA-11 systems.

The NSA and CIA conducted voice analyses on some of those released intercepts and determined (by comparing those calls to previous voice samples), that at least some of the Ukrainian separatists on the intercepts were in fact who the claimed to be.

I simply have a hard time believing that a Ukrainian fighter jet shot the commercial plane down if it was leaving Ukraining airspace (moreover, since the Russian's are claiming it was only a mile or two from the commercial jet, the fighter jet would have had an opportunity to inspect it's "supposed" target prior to engaging).

The downed plane was likely the result of an unintentional fuck-up. I have a hard time believing Russia would approve of the strike, considering the PR nightmare it now finds itself in, but nonetheless, the side it's supporting in this civil war is likely the culprits. Again, not saying with absolute certainty, but my best educated guess based on the presentation by both sides.

Edited July 23, 2014 by downzy

[downzy]

In a testy exchange between AP reporter Matt Lee and U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf, Lee virtually corners Harf into admitting that the “evidence” presented by the U.S. to blame Russian-backed rebels for the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 amounts to nothing more than YouTube videos and social media posts.

Anyone else find it absurd that we're to accept the Russian account and reject the U.S. position because the official for the U.S. State Department gave unimpressive responses to appropriate questions? Um, last time I checked, when did Russian officials allow a free press to question its officials at all?

Sorry, but posts like this reek of hypocrisy. While I don't discount the fact that both sides are heavily invested in a PR war, let's also remember that one side allows a free press to question government policy openly and without consequences. Had the Russian presentation allowed for cross-examination as seen in the U.S. State Department briefing I might be a little more accommodating to their assertions. While the U.S. media isn't necessarily a bastion of free ideas and activist investigation, let's not pretend that accounts from Russia have been given the same level of scrutiny.

Edited July 23, 2014 by downzy

[Guest Gunns]

They said that the missile exploded near the plane but the impact of it sent the plane crashing back to earth

[netcat]

i have very little doubts tha British expertise will show Putin did it, as it was already declared by Cameron and Daily Mail

magisme won't believe it

Fuck off. I'm a reasonable guy. If they show he did it instead of just saying he did it, I'll believe it.

i know, i was kidding

I simply have a hard time believing that a Ukrainian fighter jet shot the commercial plane down if it was leaving Ukraining airspace (moreover, since the Russian's are claiming it was only a mile or two from the commercial jet, the fighter jet would have had an opportunity to inspect it's "supposed" target prior to engaging).

Russian generals said it was Su-25. All the military experts, including Russian ones, claim Su-25 can't fly at the same altitude as Boeing.

http://www.rferl.org/content/malaysian-probability-russia-claims-aircraft-su25/25466500.html

Su 25 is a "stormtrooper", designed to provide close air support to the ground forces. and it's just ridiculous to say that it shot down a passenger plane flying on 11, 000 m altitude

i know non of you understands Russian, it but this if funny as hell. one of Russian state channels invited the "wrong" expert by mistake, and he says Su-25 story is pathetic, and the tv-personality just loses his shit. he askes the expert like 5 times in a row "So you're accusing our Defence Ministry of unprofessionalism???". and he's like "no, no, but you know, there's a war going on, there's propaganda"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARAhEDgMkeg

It's tough to determine who was at fault here, simple as both sides have a history of problems telling the truth in regards to these kinds of incidents.

can you give an example of the US spreading lies about what's going on in Ukraine?

i can give 100 examples of Russia doing so

Edited July 23, 2014 by netcat

[netcat]

well im not surprised you can't tell the difference between media mistakes/manipulations and the official position of the state

on the other hand, the story you have posted proves nothing and i don't find it credible like at all

also even if i would beleive you that this particular picture was taken in Russia, so what? there are more than enough other proofs on the account of Russian mercenaries in Ukraine. including hundreds of dead and arrested morons with russian passports

edit: and my question was not directed to you, it was directed to the sane people

Edited July 23, 2014 by netcat

[netcat]

go make an ass out of yourself somewhere else

[netcat]

and surely the government had no other choice but to send a shill over mygnr board, as it's a kind of common knowledge that the most influential people of the planet, members of secret world government and some of the illuminati come here on regular basis

[netcat]

ok Miss Marple, case closed

[downzy]

The problem with the contentions put forward by Ratbrain in his articles is they do nothing to explain why pro-Russian rebels hindered international crash site experts, tampered with evidence, and took their time returning the plane's black box. If the rebels were not responsible for the downing of the crash, why did they act the way they did?

The other issue with Robert Parry's recent arguments at Consortiumnews.com is they're all based on unnamed sources, or I should say, one unnamed source. That isn't to say that the information isn't valid, but it seems like a leap of faith to say with any certainty that it is actually the Ukrainian military who bears responsibility.

The last time I checked, and I could be wrong on this, pro-Russian rebels do not have an air force, so there would be no need for the Ukrainian military to shoot down any plane (much less reason to shoot down a plane that's leaving Eastern-Ukrainian air space). The exception would be if they assumed an incoming plane to be of Russian military, and even then I question whether they'd actually fire at it, since it would likely provoke Russia into a more aggressive and direct confrontation with Ukrainian forces. I suppose Parry's "insider" information concerning drunk Ukrainian soldiers could be true, but considering how elaborate and complicated the SA-11 radar-guided surface-to-air missile system is to operate (and how many people required), that explanation seems unsatisfactory to me. Here's what's involved when operating such a weapon:

The SA-11 radar-guided surface-to-air missile is not like the shoulder-mounted rockets that many rebels use to fire against low-flying aircraft worldwide. Rather, it’s a complex system that requires three vehicles and about a dozen personnel, most of them specially trained as a team. The system’s warning-radar detects an incoming plane; calculates its speed, range, and altitude; and passes that information to the missile battery’s “acquisition radar,” which tracks the plane. When the plane is within ideal range, the missile is fired. Then, the “target-tracking radar” guides the missile to the target.

A U.S. Air Force officer familiar with the SA-11 says, “There is no way that some guy, who was a miner or truck driver before the war, can all of a sudden operate this system.” It takes several weeks to learn how to use it, six months or so to get proficient. John Pike, a weapons specialist with GlobalSecurity.org, puts it this way: “If some separatists had started learning how to use the SA-11 late last year, by now they might be up to speed.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/vladimir_putin_is_responsible_for_the_malaysia_airlines_flight_17_disaster.html

Edited July 23, 2014 by downzy

[classicrawker]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

[magisme]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

[downzy]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

The problem is whether some sort of "impartial" and international investigation is going to have the intelligence apparatus to figure out fact from fiction. The U.S. and other aligned nations with the intelligence wherewithal might be the only ones capable of investigating.

[magisme]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

The problem is whether some sort of "impartial" and international investigation is going to have the intelligence apparatus to figure out fact from fiction. The U.S. and other aligned nations with the intelligence wherewithal might be the only ones capable of investigating.

I'm worried about the same thing. I can kind of deal with "aligned," as long as Russia and China are unable to cast significant doubt on the findings, assuming those findings finger the rebels, of course. But if the whole thing is spearheaded by US intelligence, pardon me as I'll give zero fucks about what they tell others to say happened.

[classicrawker]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

The problem is whether some sort of "impartial" and international investigation is going to have the intelligence apparatus to figure out fact from fiction. The U.S. and other aligned nations with the intelligence wherewithal might be the only ones capable of investigating.

Not saying the U.S. is impartial, as our government has its ax to grind in this case, but what International entity would be considered impartial these days?...............

Edited July 23, 2014 by classicrawker

[downzy]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

The problem is whether some sort of "impartial" and international investigation is going to have the intelligence apparatus to figure out fact from fiction. The U.S. and other aligned nations with the intelligence wherewithal might be the only ones capable of investigating.

I'm worried about the same thing. I can kind of deal with "aligned," as long as Russia and China are unable to cast significant doubt on the findings, assuming those findings finger the rebels, of course. But if the whole thing is spearheaded by US intelligence, pardon me as I'll give zero fucks about what they tell others to say happened.

I think it's going to come down to which side you believe. I'm not sure a "smoking gun" will ever be produced from either side.

Russian intelligence seems to be a little scattered, as if they're shooting fifty bullets and hoping one of them hits. First it was a ghost plane, with the passengers already dead. Next it was the Ukrainians who shot it down with a surface-to-air missile system. Now they're proposing that it was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet.

We also have to consider that as bad as a track record the U.S. has been in regards to supplying accurate intelligence (specifically a result of the 2003 Iraq War), let's not pretend that Russia is a beacon of truth and openness.

While I'm more inclined to believe the American account considering it makes a lot more sense (pro-Russian rebels mistakenly shot down the commercial airline believing it to be a Ukrainian military plane), it sure would help if U.S. officials were a little more forthcoming with hard evidence.

Edited July 23, 2014 by downzy

[netcat]

there's an interesting quote by Russian ambassador to the United Nations i came across

The Russian ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, indicated that if the plane was indeed brought down by pro-Russian rebels that it would have been a mistake. If it was a mistake, he said, then those who had operated the missile launcher were confused. “If it was confusion,” he says, “it was not an act of terrorism.” Rebels have consistently denied being involved in the attack.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/ukraine-says-russian-officer-shot-down-mh17/

i know it's not a confession, but you won't hear this kind of things from Ukraine or US officials

[magisme]

Freud talks about something called kettle logic in The Interpretation of Dreams. It gets its name from a story about a guy who borrowed a kettle from his neighbor and returned it damaged. The borrower employs three contradictory arguments to avoid responsibility:

1. I returned it undamaged.

2. It was damaged when you gave it to me.

3. I never borrowed it.

Politicians always use kettle logic, and that's what that Russian quote sounds like to me.