236 Palestinians killed to 1 Israeli

[Georgy Zhukov]

The Israeli government should at least pay for the funerals.

[Crash Diet]

The Zionist Jews did not have a standing army in the late 1800's to fight or use force against the indigenous people occupying the land. So rich Zionist families began to finance land purchases. Once major portions of land were bought they're was a mass immigration of jews from Europe back to Israel. Over time, the jews were able to use political and economic force to remove the muslims/arabs who were occupying that land. It can be looked at as a type of political or social-economic coup. Because the jews had now begun to out number the arabs on those lands.

I always thought this was common knowledge, no reason for the name calling.

If everything you are saying is correct (most of it really isn't...and it stems from racist propaganda)....how is any of it out of the ordinary?

Is it not the natural selection of sorts? Evolution, maybe?

It's been mankind's way for thousands of years.

Jews are a race?
You mean anti semitic propaganda, right?
I'm not an anti semitic, but i consider zionist=fascists
nationalist bullshit is fascism, bro

Edited July 22, 2014 by Crash Diet

[Nobodys_Fault]

as far as i get it, civilians are being warned by Tsahal before the missile strikes. but Hamas don't let them out, which is not surprising as they are their human shields. while Hamas leadres are sitting in underground bunkers and hardly imagine the scope of destruction

[citation needed]

The "human shield" myth is nothing more than flimsy propaganda that somehow pins the blame on the victim for being underneath the dropping bombs. It's ridiculous.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/015/2009/en/8f299083-9a74-4853-860f-0563725e633a/mde150152009en.pdf

Contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of ‘human shields,’ Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants.

[netcat]

NF,

im not gonna pretend i know what's going on there. I live in the country that happened to be in the center of another war right now. and i understand how ridiculous and annoying it looks when someone having very restricted knowledge on the situation still feels the urge to air his "competent" opinion, based on 1 TV report and 2 articles he had read the other day. But i have many friends in Israel. and they tell me stuff. and i read their fb discussions every day. that said, i know i only see one part of the picture. but also i know Amnesty International reports on what happened in my country were not always accurate...

plus, i came across this statement by Amnesty international

Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-civilians-endangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108

and an attemt for analisys from CNN

The geography and population density of Gaza further clouds efforts to determine whether civilian casualties are part of Hamas strategy of using human shields or collateral damage from Israel's ground and aerial assaults

"They're putting missile batteries next to hospitals, next to mosques, next to schools," said Ron Dermer, Israel's ambassador to the United States. "They're the ones who are putting their civilians in harm's way.

"They're saying, 'Ignore the warnings of the (Israel Defense Forces), stay there,'" Dermer said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/human-shields-mideast-controversy/

that said, you are probably right, the term human shields is incorrect. but it's not that simple. at least for me

[Lio]

Israel has now attacked a UN school in Gaza, killing 15 people, of which 7 were children. 150 wounded. The UN had given the precise coordinates of the school to Israel, because Palestinians had fled there to seek shelter. It's such a sick situation. I can't imagine the children growing up in these circumstances will ever be able to lead normal lives. This has been going on for so long, to me it seems whole generations are lost for the future. How could you ever get over the anger ?

There are now 700 Palestinians dead, of which 74% were civilians according to the UN; and more than 30 Israelis (don't know how many civilians).

[Georgy Zhukov]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

[Nobodys_Fault]

NF,

im not gonna pretend i know what's going on there.

Well, then ask questions. Don't just mindlessly spread misinformation. It's a dangerous position to take and unfortunately one I feel is adopted far too often on this issue by people who have taken no more than a cursory glance at it.

Despite your reservations about the honesty of Amnesty International, I think I'll take their word over CNN quoting the Israeli ambassador. There is no evidence which supports the idea that Hamas deliberately and strategically endanger Palestinians civilians. Although if you read the report I cited you'll find cases in which it is the IDF, who are guilty of "human shields":

In several cases Israeli soldiers also used civilians, including children, as “human shields”, endangering their lives by forcing them to remain in or near houses which they took over and used as military positions. Some were forced to carry out dangerous tasks such as inspecting properties or objects suspected of being booby-trapped. Soldiers also took position and launched attacks from and around inhabited houses, exposing local residents to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.

[Ace Nova]

Israel has now attacked a UN school in Gaza, killing 15 people, of which 7 were children. 150 wounded. The UN had given the precise coordinates of the school to Israel, because Palestinians had fled there to seek shelter. It's such a sick situation. I can't imagine the children growing up in these circumstances will ever be able to lead normal lives. This has been going on for so long, to me it seems whole generations are lost for the future. How could you ever get over the anger ?

There are now 700 Palestinians dead, of which 74% were civilians according to the UN; and more than 30 Israelis (don't know how many civilians).

This is sad. Wars make no sense to me personally, but they seem to be a necessary evil.

That being said, if there is truth to this, I'm almost 100% certain it's because Hamas and their cowardly followers are hiding there, using the children and civilians as human shields.

That's the real sickening part of it.

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

[magisme]

Do Nobody's_Fault a favor and read his posts, KK. He's a great poster.

[Ace Nova]

Do Nobody's_Fault a favor and read his posts, KK. He's a great poster.

I will, no worries.

[Graeme]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

[Georgy Zhukov]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

But that's okay because one out of ten of those charred bodies are Hamas militants. The rest are school children and teachers. I thought Israeli soldiers are supposed to be well trained. Have them take out the missile placements by ground. Don't shoot any kids.

[Ace Nova]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

But that's okay because one out of ten of those charred bodies are Hamas militants. The rest are school children and teachers. I thought Israeli soldiers are supposed to be well trained. Have them take out the missile placements by ground. Don't shoot any kids.

As far as I'm concerned, those missiles were shot by Hamas, at their own people. Their blood is on the hands of Hamas and no one else.

[Ace Nova]

Interesting logic, osama bin laden said something similar about 911 if I'm not mistaken.

Because the U.S. attacked Bin Laden and his country. That's why that makes sense. I almost forgot.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Kasanova King

[Georgy Zhukov]

Well Hamas is firing missiles rather close to civilians but it doesn't surprise me since Israel has reduced Gaza (and all Palestinian territories) to a fraction of what they used to be. Hamas is wrong to attack Israel, but you can't blame them. They are slowly being squeezed out of their own country. One that was rightfully theirs.

[Ace Nova]

Well Hamas is firing missiles rather close to civilians but it doesn't surprise me since Israel has reduced Gaza (and all Palestinian territories) to a fraction of what they used to be. Hamas is wrong to attack Israel, but you can't blame them. They are slowly being squeezed out of their own country. One that was rightfully theirs.

Georgy, no disrespect....I actually respect you a lot as a poster here.....but please enlighten me on how that land is "rightfully theirs"?

Jews are the indigenous people of that land.... they have always been there. Granted, they were basically given it back thanks to the West but they have every right to defend it now that it has been given back to them.

I was listening to some historians on the radio earlier this evening and they basically stated that Palestinians are essentially nomads to the rest of the Arab population in the middle east. No one wants to take them in.

Why is that?

(That's actually an honest question, because I really don't know)

[Lio]

Israel has now attacked a UN school in Gaza, killing 15 people, of which 7 were children. 150 wounded. The UN had given the precise coordinates of the school to Israel, because Palestinians had fled there to seek shelter. It's such a sick situation. I can't imagine the children growing up in these circumstances will ever be able to lead normal lives. This has been going on for so long, to me it seems whole generations are lost for the future. How could you ever get over the anger ?

There are now 700 Palestinians dead, of which 74% were civilians according to the UN; and more than 30 Israelis (don't know how many civilians).

This is sad. Wars make no sense to me personally, but they seem to be a necessary evil.

That being said, if there is truth to this, I'm almost 100% certain it's because Hamas and their cowardly followers are hiding there, using the children and civilians as human shields.

That's the real sickening part of it.

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

KK, this is coming from the UN. As I'm not there myself, I can only rely on what I read in the paper/in the news and try to figure out who is the most reliable source of information. Since it is a UN school and UN officials confirmed this news, I'm just going to go ahead and believe them. I am against all sorts of violence, and Hamas are certainly no saints, quite the opposite, every dead (Palestinian or Israeli) is one too many, but there are two sides to every story and you always seem to twist stories and then blame Hamas.

I'm curious to know what Rovim's standpoint is in all this. I think he lives in Israel ? Nobodys_Fault, are you in the area too or do you just know much about it ? I'm quite interested in this conflict as it has been going on for whole my life (and longer), and I never could quite grasp it, as it's so unreal. Also, I know media here tend to be pro-Palestinian, and (therefore ?) most of the people too. It would just be good to hear from the people who actually know the place/live there, because I'm not sure if I have a nuanced vision.

[Ace Nova]

KK, this is coming from the UN. As I'm not there myself, I can only rely on what I read in the paper/in the news and try to figure out who is the most reliable source of information. Since it is a UN school and UN officials confirmed this news, I'm just going to go ahead and believe them. I am against all sorts of violence, and Hamas are certainly no saints, quite the opposite, every dead (Palestinian or Israeli) is one too many, but there are two sides to every story and you always seem to twist stories and then blame Hamas.

I'm curious to know what Rovim's standpoint is in all this. I think he lives in Israel ? Nobodys_Fault, are you in the area too or do you just know much about it ? I'm quite interested in this conflict as it has been going on for whole my life (and longer), and I never could quite grasp it, as it's so unreal. Also, I know media here tend to be pro-Palestinian, and (therefore ?) most of the people too. It would just be good to hear from the people who actually know the place/live there, because I'm not sure if I have a nuanced vision.

Of course, there are two sides to every story and my heart feels sorrow for the innocent Palestinians that are stuck in the middle of this....and don't know any better. And of course the average Palestinian child will grow up to hate Israel and Jewish people....because that's all they have been fed their entire lives.

Yaser Arafat (although far from perfect) was the best thing to ever happen to Palestine, but unfortunately, Hamas has used his legacy and bastardized everything he stood for in order to gain the support of the Palestinian people. It's a disgrace.... and yes, Hamas is the worst of the worse. (They're actually even worse than that.....I'm trying to be civil).

[Graeme]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

But that's okay because one out of ten of those charred bodies are Hamas militants. The rest are school children and teachers. I thought Israeli soldiers are supposed to be well trained. Have them take out the missile placements by ground. Don't shoot any kids.

As far as I'm concerned, those missiles were shot by Hamas, at their own people. Their blood is on the hands of Hamas and no one else.

I can't even begin to fathom your logic. This is like if some guy threw a rock at you, and you went and butchered him and everyone who happened to be standing around him with a rocket launcher (a far superior weapon) then said "I'm not responsible for their deaths, he condemned them all when he threw the rock".

[netcat]

NF,

im not gonna pretend i know what's going on there.

Well, then ask questions. Don't just mindlessly spread misinformation. It's a dangerous position to take and unfortunately one I feel is adopted far too often on this issue by people who have taken no more than a cursory glance at it.

Despite your reservations about the honesty of Amnesty International, I think I'll take their word over CNN quoting the Israeli ambassador. There is no evidence which supports the idea that Hamas deliberately and strategically endanger Palestinians civilians. Although if you read the report I cited you'll find cases in which it is the IDF, who are guilty of "human shields":

In several cases Israeli soldiers also used civilians, including children, as “human shields”, endangering their lives by forcing them to remain in or near houses which they took over and used as military positions. Some were forced to carry out dangerous tasks such as inspecting properties or objects suspected of being booby-trapped. Soldiers also took position and launched attacks from and around inhabited houses, exposing local residents to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.

Fair enough

let me ask questions then

Amnesty International report i linked in a previous post says

“The Israeli army is well-aware that Palestinian gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and that any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians -- not gunmen.”

in other words, they acknowledge that Hamas opens fire from the civilians houses (or worse - public institutions) and then immediately takes off, right? why do they do that? because they care about their people? or because they know Israel will respond and then they will have an opportunity to show the dead bodies to the foreign press?

also i believe it's a fact that Israeli warn Palestinian people before the missile strike? it's just that some sources say they give them an hour and other say 5 minutes to leave

also about this quote

Soldiers also took position and launched attacks from and around inhabited houses, exposing local residents to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.

wars are fucked up. but isn't it what always happens in a war zone? especially as you pointed out, in the most denseley populated area on Earth

no offence, just questions

[magisme]

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

32 of the Israeli deaths are soldiers. I think only one Israeli civilian has been killed.

That's because Israel, like the rest of the West, doesn't use civilians and children as human shields.

It still shoots missiles at fucking schools.

But that's okay because one out of ten of those charred bodies are Hamas militants. The rest are school children and teachers. I thought Israeli soldiers are supposed to be well trained. Have them take out the missile placements by ground. Don't shoot any kids.

As far as I'm concerned, those missiles were shot by Hamas, at their own people. Their blood is on the hands of Hamas and no one else.

I can't even begin to fathom your logic. This is like if some guy threw a rock at you, and you went and butchered him and everyone who happened to be standing around him with a rocket launcher (a far superior weapon) then said "I'm not responsible for their deaths, he condemned them all when he threw the rock".

Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread when that's repeatedly how the discussion is framed.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Well Hamas is firing missiles rather close to civilians but it doesn't surprise me since Israel has reduced Gaza (and all Palestinian territories) to a fraction of what they used to be. Hamas is wrong to attack Israel, but you can't blame them. They are slowly being squeezed out of their own country. One that was rightfully theirs.

Georgy, no disrespect....I actually respect you a lot as a poster here.....but please enlighten me on how that land is "rightfully theirs"?

Jews are the indigenous people of that land.... they have always been there. Granted, they were basically given it back thanks to the West but they have every right to defend it now that it has been given back to them.

I was listening to some historians on the radio earlier this evening and they basically stated that Palestinians are essentially nomads to the rest of the Arab population in the middle east. No one wants to take them in.

Why is that?

(That's actually an honest question, because I really don't know)

The Palestinians are also indigenous people of that land. They've been living there for generations. Sure there were Jews already living in Palestine, some of them were resorting to terrorist tactics in the name of a Jewish State. But most of the Israelis are decended from people who emigrated there. So to have some entity to tell you that half of your country is no longer yours and that that new state continues to take more of your land, anyone would fight for it.

Yeah, some so-called "historians" have to update their information. The Arabs did start out as nomads but most of them have settled in their own countries such as Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. The Palestinians having been living there well before the British occupation, the Ottoman Empire. So yes the land is rightfully theirs.

[luciusfunk]

Nah, the land is Israel's, always has been Israel's and always will be Israel's.

[Johnny Drama]

Syrians like Palestinians are not from Arabia. They are merely Arabised. Note regular Joes in those countries are distunguished from Bedouins so as to address Birdy on the nomadic front.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Johnny Drama

[Georgy Zhukov]

Syrians like Palestinians are not from Arabia. They are merely Arabised. Note regular Joes in those countries are distunguished from Bedouins so as to address Birdy on the nomadic front.

Thanks man, you can take it from here if you want.

Nah, the land is Israel's, always has been Israel's and always will be Israel's.

Well to be precise, the land originally belonged to a group of Semitic speaking people that were displaced by the Israelites, who in turn were displaced first by the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, then returned by the Persians and again displaced by the Romans who some remained and eventually came under the rule of the Caliphates who did not mind Jews living there. But for a very short period it was Israel and for most of its history the land belonged to other people. It belongs to whoever was living there at the time. Not a bunch of forigners sanctioned by an international body who are supposed to protect the people living in their own countries from being displaced.

They jumped right onto Bosnia and Kosovo. But Israel happens to be supported by powerful friends. That is why they are getting away with being oppressors.