The Boxing Thread

[Len Cnut]

All true, I am sure, but you are still never going to get me watching a Klitschko. The last fight I watched was, one of them verses a non-entity in front of some German crowd and the fight was stopped after the other guy had a nose bleed!

Would you consider watching a Deontay Wilder? American heavyweight from Alabama, 32 fights, 32 knockouts, getting his title shot tommorow night?

I don't know - he looks a bit fat. If it is on the radio or online (I do not even have a television aerial in my room). That Klitschko fight I watched was on some dodgy illegal stream by the way.

I will tell you a great fighter of the golden age. Jimmy Young. Beat Foreman and lost a controversial decision against Ali.

PS

You were asking where I saw that John and Yoko were at Fight of the Century. I was (re) watching this last night and it must have been this,

38.40

SHit, you're right, it's John, it's John!!! Right there! Fuck, i didn't think there was nothing no one could tell me about John that i didn't already no. It's never in none of his books. Awwww, bless him. Wonder if he had a good night, didn't strike me as one into sports. Probably didn't have to be, it was just a sort of massive happening weren't it?

I remember someone asking him once if he supported Everton or Liverpool and he said he didn't care or something flippant like 'whichever ones winning!', further elaborating by saying he was into football til he was like 13 and discovered birds

if i ever went to a sporting event and John Lennon turned up I'd just turn around and watch him instead, like a little 13 yr old fallen in love bitch Although odds are probably against that particular happenstance, being as how he was brown bread three years before i was born. Then again, fuck that, it was fight of the century, I'd wait afterwards and jump him in the car park

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

I remember reading in Pele's autobiography how he was surprised that the Beatles were not football fans upon meeting them, despite coming from Liverpool. Although there are a few players on the Sgt Pepper sleeve like Albert Stubbins - and Sonny Liston - so they must not have been that much cut off from sport.

It is sort of ironic, John and Yoko attending. ''Let us stop promoting peace and love for the day in order to watch two guys beat each other up to a pulp for tremendous amounts of money''.

[Len Cnut]

I remember reading in Pele's autobiography how he was surprised that the Beatles were not football fans upon meeting them, despite coming from Liverpool. Although there are a few players on the Sgt Pepper sleeve like Albert Stubbins - and Sonny Liston - so they must not have been that much cut off from sport.

It is sort of ironic, John and Yoko attending. ''Let us stop promoting peace and love for the day in order to watch two guys beat each other up to a pulp for tremendous amounts of money''.

Well if you wanna take it like that you could say the same for Ali, religious beliefs say he cant fight in a war but he can knock the fuck out of fighters all day long.

Isnt Dixie Dean on Sgt Peppers too? They definitely knew who Liston was from their meeting with Ali, apparently John did like him, said he wanted to meet the champ Liston and not this loudmouth. Ali dropped his famous 'you not as dumb as you look' line on him to which John apparently said 'no but you fuckin' are'.

Liston was in the Monkees movie too, apparently it was like a wilful thing, to pick Liston cuz of that photo op association of Ali with The Beatles and The Monkees movie was a send up of The Monkees and their being a second rate Beatles, they purposely had the second choice fighter to Ali in it.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

I remember reading in Pele's autobiography how he was surprised that the Beatles were not football fans upon meeting them, despite coming from Liverpool. Although there are a few players on the Sgt Pepper sleeve like Albert Stubbins - and Sonny Liston - so they must not have been that much cut off from sport.

It is sort of ironic, John and Yoko attending. ''Let us stop promoting peace and love for the day in order to watch two guys beat each other up to a pulp for tremendous amounts of money''.

Well if you wanna take it like that you could say the same for Ali, religious beliefs say he cant fight in a war but he can knock the fuck out of fighters all day long.

The Nation of Islam were opposed to sports really. Malcolm X made speeches saying, the white man just throws the black man a bone by giving them these sports, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson. But Cassius Clay was too big a catch for them.

By the way, have you seen Larry Holmes talk about Ali. He basically calls him ''the most overrated fighter of all time''. He says it on that Thrilla in Manila documentary; he says something similar on Champions Forever. He doesn't rate him at all haha.

[Len Cnut]

The Nation of Islam were opposed to sports really. Malcolm X made speeches saying, the white man just throws the black man a bone by giving them these sports, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson. But Cassius Clay was too big a catch for them.

You're right the Nation were opposed to sports but the speeches where Malcolm said that shit wasn't in terms of being anti-sports, it was more to point out that these things were used as like, to appease people y'know, like piecemeal change...when it was really meaningless, thats what Malcolm was getting at but you're right about them being anti-sports and then kinda flip flopping after Ali beat Liston. And it was after Ali BEAT Liston, they didn't think he had a chance in hell, Malcolm went to Miami with Ali but the Nation made it clear that if he was to do so he would be doing so as Malcolm and not representing the Nation...then when Ali won they were all over him, even to the point of approaching him directly to nudge Malcolm out of the picture, as he was kinda on the outs with them at that point.

Really and truly, Ali sold out the person who truly believed in him, that being Malcolm. Quite badly as well. People don't wanna remember the ugly side of Ali but y'know in the wake of Malcolm X's death he made this statement 'Anybody who insults, Malcolm X or anybody who insults the honourable Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam WILL die'. Over the grave of the one man who believed in him when the Nation didn't, thats cold really.

But on the point of his objection to war, legally it posed an interesting connundrum because by the early 70s no one gave a shit about the Vietnam war so they were kinda looking for a way to let him back in but they were kinda checkmated by the fact that according to NOI doctrine Ali would have to fight in a holy war, a war ordained by Allah so he couldn't be classed as an objector like that. Until someone bought up the legal prescedent of Jehovahs Witnesses who are also exempt from war but would have to fight if God said so. So someone sharp legal thinking got Ali his lisence back or boxing history might've been different because one thing i noticed about the American government is they do these flippant things and then after a bit of time has passed and it's clear it was out of order they kinda stick to their guns, see things out. They did the same with Johns immigration case too, kinda saw it through kinda very far past when they should've just jacked it in really. I suppose thats all governments do that, no one wants to lose face and that eh?

By the way, have you seen Larry Holmes talk about Ali. He basically calls him ''the most overrated fighter of all time''. He says it on that Thrilla in Manila documentary; he says something similar on Champions Forever. He doesn't rate him at all haha.

What you need to realise about boxers is that they are some uncivilised motherfuckers In the 70s, 80s and 90s you had all these interviews with all these boxers and they're all polite and love each other and respect each other but thats basically cuz of how TV was set up in those days, since the new millenium and our kinda growing easier with the stories behind the story now you have boxers and that coming out and they can really speak their mind about how they feel about shit and what you come to realise is that they're some petty petty petty motherfuckers

I mean there's umpteen videos out there of Larry, pre 2000s, totally sucking Ali's dick. Same with Frazier, everyones all cordial and respectful. Now times have changed and they can say what they like they got Larry coming out saying what he did, Joe Frazier saying he's the guy who gave Ali Parkinsons and serve him right and it's like, y'know what, after all these years you could've just shut the fuck up and had some class and just let it be, instead of trying to cane someone who ain't well.

Larrys always been a twat and a sore loser though, ever see the Cooney fight? Larrys like 'well uh, it's like this, fuck the judges, fuck the ref, fuck the audience and fuck everybody cuz i won' 'Rocky Marciano couldnt carry my jockstrap', yeeeeeeeah, shut the fuck up Larry, you lispy twat I like him as a fighter, good fighter, brilliant even, very talented chap but he don't half talk a load of bollocks when you stick a mic under his nose.

[DieselDaisy]

The Nation of Islam was, is, really (Islamic) fringe bizarre weirdo stuff: white people are a race of devils created by a scientist called Yakub on the Greek island of Patmos!! He is an educated man, Ali, inherently educated and articulate, but presumably he believed this gibberish until he became a mainstream Sunni Muslim (which I think was around 1975).

[Len Cnut]

The Nation of Islam was, is, really (Islamic) fringe bizarre weirdo stuff: white people are a race of devils created by a scientist called Yakub on the Greek island of Patmos!! He is an educated man, Ali, inherently educated and articulate, but presumably he believed this gibberish until he became a mainstream Sunni Muslim (which I think was around 1975).

It's some crazy shit but at the same time, in context, i can see how it appealled to black males in the 1950s and 60s in America. I mean we hear that shit and it's like, unbelievable as fuck, ridiculous even but it only goes to show where the black community was at in those times, where social injustice etc had put them, in terms of lack of education, lack of awareness of the world around them. And yet some of them kinda took Islam and created this bizzare afro-ccentric offshoot.

I think the main positive thing the nation did or was attempting to do was to, in effect, create a black history that would warrant some kind of nationalism and engender the resultant pride that comes from said nationalism. The fact that it was bullshit became almost incidental compared to the benefits of the ideas of what it was trying to do.

I think the famous writer for the Chicago Tribune Stanley Crouch once said that 'anybody who believes that the white race was created by a mad scientist named Yakub is not someone whoose opinion or opinions on world affairs are something to be taken seriously' but then the flipside of that is what the fuck must have been done to that fuckin' race that they were in a place in the 50s and 60s that was so fucked up to where they would swallow that shit. And what must've been going on in these black guys lives that they were in a place where someone could say to em 'think back to all the white people you ever met in your life...ever remember a truly nice one?' And none of em could.

The fact is the Nation made its bones based on like jailbirds, these are like uneducated people and this doctrine, spurious though it was, kinda handed them back their dignity, these weren't your debate team kiddies, have you ever seen The Fruit of Islam, their para-miltary wing? Scary bastards, all blatant jailbirds that were kinda pulled into this shit. But it'd be dismissive of the power of the Nation to say they only appealled to thickos. Black people in America just desperately needed a kind of affirmative afro-ccentric thing and the nation gave it to em on a plate. They had a funny kinda swing after Elijah Muhammad died, his son kinda took the Nation and made it a Sunni concern and then Minister Louis Farrakhan took it back to the old Elijah Muhammad nation, which is kinda where it stands today but they've really kinda swept the Yakub stuff under the rug a bit.

And not only that, in terms of the doctrine, anybody, any pundit or social commentator or interviewer, all of that shit, not one person actually thought to pick up a Qu'ran and actually put them to the test, could've shut em down in a debate easily. And yet no one did, white or black.

When Malcolm went to Saudi Arabia certain Arabs were angered by their blasphemous take on Islam and Malcolm, brave chappie that he was, told them it was their fault for not propagating this HUGE religion well enough that the biggest superpower in the world and their populus is totally uninformed as to what Islam is...and it's like the second biggest religion in the world, which is a huge disservice to it.

[DieselDaisy]

Farrakhan amalgamated Scientology with the Nation. I suppose the one religion nuttier than the NOI is Scientology so it makes sense to create an alliance between the two. It is bonkers and really is, an uneducated Afro-Americanocentric nutty version Islam. Did they actually espouse the Haj as, if they did, any member would have saw exactly what Malcolm X saw when he visited Mecca? Just how much in common did they have with Islam beyond, dietary restrictions. It seems totally divorced, as a movement, from Sunni and Shiite forms of Islam.

''The honorable Elijah Muhammad'' - god, I get sick of hearing Ali saying that.

[Len Cnut]

Farrakhan amalgamated Scientology with the Nation. I suppose the one religion nuttier than the NOI is Scientology so it makes sense to create an alliance between the two. It is bonkers and really is, an uneducated Afro-Americanocentric nutty version Islam. Did they actually espouse the Haj as, if they did, any member would have saw exactly what Malcolm X saw when he visited Mecca? Just how much in common did they have with Islam beyond, dietary restrictions. It seems totally divorced, as a movement, from Sunni and Shiite forms of Islam.

''The honorable Elijah Muhammad'' - god, I get sick of hearing Ali saying that.

In those days none of em could afford Hajj i suppose. Also i remember reading the NOI were saying Malcolm went to the middle east very early on too, under the radar but did not want to go to Hajj because Elijah Muhammad hadn't been and him being the leader if he aint been i doubt the other could've. The NOI told this story to cast doubt on Malcolms assertion that seeing white and black muslims together in Mecca made him change his shit over in 65 when, according to them, he would've seen that before having been to Arabia before.

What i dont get is how would they let them lot in? I mean you gotta be a proper muslim to enter Mecca, go there claiming to be a prophet and they'd have your nadgers off surely?

The scientology link is interesting, cuz they were associated with that Moorish Science thing early on too werent they? That bloke who they called God, Master WD Fard was something like that, the bloke who taught Elijah.

The 5% Nation of Gods and Earths is also an offshoot of the nation that has a heavy emphasis on numerological type shit, as started by Clarence 3X.

Its certainly intriguing, how it all ties together. What interests me is who was WD Fard, no one seems to really know for sure. I think he just most likely some kinda conman that amalgamated that Moorish science mularkey with Islam, changed some shit and hey presto, you have the NOI.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

I think Malcolm X may have just kept the Yakub stuff, a bit quite - ''best keep that under wraps ole' boy''. Also there is the stuff about a giant celestial wheel built in, Japan, of all places. Was Malcolm X not already becoming estranged from the movement beforehand when he found out 'The honorable' Elijah Muhammad was shagging his secretaries and fathering loads of offspring? I think he made that speech about JFK and the 'chickens coming home to roost' beforehand also. I think it is plausible that he was pretty much a Sunni when he reached Mecca, certainly wavering in that direction. The weird un-Islamic theology is the biggest flaw because you can see why it was an attractive movement for many blacks growing up amidst the civil rights movement,

- It argued (with some historical justification) that Christianity was a sort of Caucasian religion, forced upon the slave community, and that Islam was an attractive alternative to this.

- The repudiation of the 'slave' name was a clever rhetorical device.

- It offered a conservative re-invigorating stoic brand of black nationalism in contrast to the Panthers etc.

- It had charismatic orators in Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali.

Then you get to Yakub the black scientist and it all collapses!

[Len Cnut]

The timeline i think was he discovered Elijah had been putting it about a bit, made a point of it, spoke directly to Farrakhan and Captain Joseph X (a fucked up character on his own, look him up!) and they grassed him up so the NOI had the hump with him, THEN came the 'chickens coming home to roost' comment for which he was silenced for 90 days (some say that comment was made on purpose) and THEN he went public with being away from the NOI, i think thats the timeline.

But yeah, your post is pretty spot on.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[streak]

Larry is obviously very bitter.

[DieselDaisy]

He is bitter because he never got the recognition he feels his due. His career is sort of, the forgotten sandwich filler between Ali and Tyson. I mean come on! There are some who argue that Joe Louis, Marciano or Dempsey were better than Ali - that is fair enough - but to say Ali is basically not very good!!

[Iron MikeyJ]

He is bitter because he never got the recognition he feels his due. His career is sort of, the forgotten sandwich filler between Ali and Tyson. I mean come on! There are some who argue that Joe Louis, Marciano or Dempsey were better than Ali - that is fair enough - but to say Ali is basically not very good!!

Which if you really look at his career, he has some solid victories, Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers are probably the biggest names. Gerry Cooney was also a pretty decent fighter. But for the most part, Larry's victories came against the guys people rag on Tyson for beating, people forget their eras were pretty much the same, Larry was just at the beginning of the 80's while Mike was at the end. Then when you look at his losses to Michael Spinks (controversy aside, they still count as losses). So Tyson destroyed a guy that Larry himself lost to twice, plus Larry also got creamed by Mike (yes I know age, blah, blah, blah), so what I'm saying is Larry was great, yes. But is he on an Ali or Louis type level? No. Which I think thats a bitter pill for him to swallow, because in his mind, he should be. Plus it doesn't help matters that everything that comes out of his mouth was always so degrading. Sure Ali talked a lot of shit, but he did it with class and charisma. Plus he talked it to guys he was fighting, not ghosts of the past. I've never heard Ali rag on Louis or Marciano, while the comments Holmes said about Marciano were just plain classless. By that point Rocky wasn't even alive anymore, what is to be gained by talking shit about a former, legendary champion? Nothing. But Holmes wasn't smart enough to realize that.

Also I'd like to add, Holmes likes to think he was some sort of prophet because of what he said about Tyson right before their fight. Which is total bs. Holmes talked that kind of shit to MANY of the fighters he fought. It was just something he did to try and tear the other guy down, while trying to build himself up. Yes he happened to be right about Mike, but my point is he just got lucky there, he ain't no damn prophet!!! But yet I've heard him talk about those comments MANY times over the years. Again he is bitter because he isn't reguarded as the GOAT, which in his mind, he is....

[DieselDaisy]

He probably thinks he defeated Ali in his prime.

It is interesting how Ali's last two fights were both Tyson victims. It is like a changing of the guard.

[Iron MikeyJ]

On a side note, the Wilder fight IS on Showtime tonight!!! Pretty excited about it, first heavyweight title fight I've watched live in forever. While I do like some of the lower weight classes (welter, light heavy, middle mainly) I've always been a heavyweight guy. Even though I'm not completly sold on Wilder just yet, I watched some highlights on the guy, and his knockouts are not really that impressive. Len compared him to George, but NO WAY does he have Big George type of power. He's probably closer to a Lennox Lewis than George Foreman, which isn't a bad thing, just doesn't make for really exciting fights. But having said that, I am rooting for him, and very much looking forward to tonight.

[Len Cnut]

What Larry is getting at with that, in his own inimitable way of expressing himself like a cunt, is that Ali, on paper, skill-set-wise is short of a lot. He didn't have a power punch, a knockout punch, he didn't do body-shots at all, all he seemed to have was speed and a good solid jab. And a chin. He's not really on paper the complete boxer. Tyson has pointed out similar on thisis50.com in an interview, although he responded to the question of 'could you beat Ali?' by throwing his hands up, waving no and say 'hell fuckin' nah man!'

[Iron MikeyJ]

But I'd say Ali had just as much power as Larry did, a better chin, faster, and a BETTER jab. So to me, Larry impleying such things is just pointing out his own weaknesses. That would be like Tyson saying "If you don't let him intimidate you, you can beat him." Pot calling the kettle black....

[ronaldo9]

That's a bit disappointing.

[DieselDaisy]

What Larry is getting at with that, in his own inimitable way of expressing himself like a cunt, is that Ali, on paper, skill-set-wise is short of a lot. He didn't have a power punch, a knockout punch, he didn't do body-shots at all, all he seemed to have was speed and a good solid jab. And a chin. He's not really on paper the complete boxer. Tyson has pointed out similar on thisis50.com in an interview, although he responded to the question of 'could you beat Ali?' by throwing his hands up, waving no and say 'hell fuckin' nah man!'

That is silly because Ali was a boxer. It would be against his nature to go for big first round knock outs a la Foreman, or, work on the body a la Frazier. Ali's default style was to jab and move. You could just as well accuse Tyson of ''not being the complete fighter'' for ''not dancing'', or Marciano for, ''looking ungainly'!

[Len Cnut]

What Larry is getting at with that, in his own inimitable way of expressing himself like a cunt, is that Ali, on paper, skill-set-wise is short of a lot. He didn't have a power punch, a knockout punch, he didn't do body-shots at all, all he seemed to have was speed and a good solid jab. And a chin. He's not really on paper the complete boxer. Tyson has pointed out similar on thisis50.com in an interview, although he responded to the question of 'could you beat Ali?' by throwing his hands up, waving no and say 'hell fuckin' nah man!'

That is silly because Ali was a boxer. It would be against his nature to go for big first round knock outs a la Foreman, or, work on the body a la Frazier. Ali's default style was to jab and move. You could just as well accuse Tyson of ''not being the complete fighter'' for ''not dancing'', or Marciano for, ''looking ungainly'!

It's not a criticism used to corroborate a 'he was shit' theory, it's a distinction made that shows that, despite those things, he was fantastic as a boxer, i always took it to be Tyson saying how unique he was. The assumption is that a 'great' fighter is one like Sugar Ray Robinson, the complete fighter, who had no identifiable weaknesses whatsoever. And i truly believe that of Sugar Ray too.

Thats the interview those observations are from.

[DieselDaisy]

The way Ali was developing, around 1966-67 I cannot see any weaknesses. Well certainly any weaknesses that were present (you might mention Cooper sending him down) were being ironed out. Any problems he had, he could pretty much dance them away and at the very minimum, win on points, regardless. Listen, in Ali v Frazier II, first three or so rounds, he pretty much dances away the problem that is Frazier and this is an Ali, operating with only about 60% (at most) the speed he had before the exile.

[RandallFlagg]

Cotto ducking Canelo, Oscar says the fight is off since the diva missed his fifth deadline. I don't reckon the fans will tune in for Cotto-Mayweather 2 if they both have ducked their nemesis of the moment... Cotto can fight Golovkin if he doesn't want if off Alvarez and is the middleweight champ, see how that works out for him.

[Len Cnut]

My personal belief is identical to yours on the matter Dies', i think he was perfect, he might not've been the complete boxer as per the textbook, orthodox stance, guard up, a classic slip and counter, knockout power etc etc, he had perfected a series of unconventional traits that his style embodied that made him unbeatable. I mean that run of fights from Liston II to Zora Foley is just phenomenal. In that era and age no boxer alive EVER beats Ali, dancing away is one thing, he would dance in and out, with flurries, lightning speed, this weird almost freakish poise and balance, he didn't even just dance i've never ever seen anyone, any weight, dance quite like Ali...and he's fucking heavyweight, in Tysons case i dont think he's being insulting with it or anything either.

Larry basically is bitter at Ali simply because he was lumbered with unenviable task of following that fuckin' act. He'll hang onto his little bullshit victory and this delusion that he has that he used to get the better of Ali in sparring when Ali did that shit in sparring since forever, since even his very earliest days, it just looked pronounced to the sportswriters when Ali's goin' in to fight Big George and a not to dissimilar big lump in Larry is knocking his about the ring but it's obvious with his behaviour doing it and his resultant emulation of it in his ring work that Ali was training himself up for that kinda shit. Larrys still got that semi-on since 1975, people like George Plimpton and Norman Mailer and Hunter S Thompson watching you leather Muhammad Ali has an intoxicating effect on a man I'm sure but the fact is everybody and his Mum knows Larrys a fuckin' nobber. Always has been. Ever see his brawl with Jamaican Trev'?

funniest thing in the world

Cotto ducking Canelo, Oscar says the fight is off since the diva missed his fifth deadline. I don't reckon the fans will tune in for Cotto-Mayweather 2 if they both have ducked their nemesis of the moment... Cotto can fight Golovkin if he doesn't want if off Alvarez and is the middleweight champ, see how that works out for him.

Dont even say that out loud man, they're fighting this year and thats it, dont you jinx that shit

Edited January 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[streak]

LOL at Larry

On a side note, the Wilder fight IS on Showtime tonight!!! Pretty excited about it, first heavyweight title fight I've watched live in forever. While I do like some of the lower weight classes (welter, light heavy, middle mainly) I've always been a heavyweight guy. Even though I'm not completly sold on Wilder just yet, I watched some highlights on the guy, and his knockouts are not really that impressive. Len compared him to George, but NO WAY does he have Big George type of power. He's probably closer to a Lennox Lewis than George Foreman, which isn't a bad thing, just doesn't make for really exciting fights. But having said that, I am rooting for him, and very much looking forward to tonight.

Lennox was a much better fighter than Wilder, and so was big George, even whilst coming up the ranks. I would say more Michael Grant!

Wilder is big and strong, and has obvious power. But who has he fought?