A Civil Rights Leader Has Disguised Herself As Black For Years, Her Parents Say

[Apollo]

If a man can feel his penis and his brain are female then this woman can feel she is black.

Either we embrace people self identifying based on their inner feelings or not. No cherry picking please.

No, that's bollocks. You can't feel a skin colour.

Have you researched this issue? Spoken to hundreds of people who disagree with you?

I would never be so arrogant as to tell somebody that their "feelings" are wrong. Would you call and tell Jenner that his feelings are wrong?

Like Alfie said. Seems like a slippery slope when we start cherry picking what other people can "feel or not feel" based on our ONW personal situation.

[ShadowOfTheWave]

If a man can feel his penis and his brain are female then this woman can feel she is black.

Either we embrace people self identifying based on their inner feelings or not. No cherry picking please.

No, that's bollocks. You can't feel a skin colour.

Have you researched this issue? Spoken to hundreds of people who disagree with you?

I would never be so arrogant as to tell somebody that their "feelings" are wrong. Would you call and tell Jenner that his feelings are wrong?

Like Alfie said. Seems like a slippery slope when we start cherry picking what other people can "feel or not feel" based on our ONW personal situation.

Yes. He is a man no matter what he feels or how he mutilates his body.

[Chris1989]

I wouldn't tell Jenner that her feelings are wrong because transgenderism is a real thing. You can see it from a young age and its glaringly obvious in many cases, just like a child being gay.

It's not social, it's genetically in the child.

Saying you feel black or white is total bullocks.

Hey, I feel blue - avatar made me think it and the smurfs confirmed it.

Call me wrong and I'll say "you can't tell me how I feel"

[Gordon Comstock]

You and your smurf feelings are wrong

[spunko12345]

I wouldn't tell Jenner that her feelings are wrong because transgenderism is a real thing. You can see it from a young age and its glaringly obvious in many cases, just like a child being gay.

It's not social, it's genetically in the child.

Saying you feel black or white is total bullocks.

Hey, I feel blue - avatar made me think it and the smurfs confirmed it.

Call me wrong and I'll say "you can't tell me how I feel"

Your wrong Chris and i can confirm your not blue or a smurf by looking at a picture of you on your bike you silly sod

[alfierose]

I'm not sure how it's glaringly obvious in people like Jenner and the raft of other men who have led very masculine defined lives up until the point they transition. A large number of late transitioners have been very successful in sports, military and businesses. There is only one woman made it into the top ten richest CEO list and she is there because she transitioned whilst already holding that top spot. The next non trans woman is placed at number 33. Most of these transitioners have had several wives and many children. If we take the narrative at face value it is all about how one feels internally and not how we have lived or how we are perceived by others.

If you are arguing that transitioning in any sense is about genetics whose to say this lady doesn't have a black brain due to some long forgotten about ethnic ancestor. Or of course you could argue that the concepts of black brain and lady brain take us back at least 50- 100 years in terms of progressive attitudes. It's easy to forget people were denied the right to vote and many civil liberties based on such thinking.

My point about cherry picking is that basing society and laws (as is happening in some areas) around identity politics is potentially opening a Pandora's box particularly in the internet age which aids us in picking personas at will, it's inevitable that this will start to encroach on lived reality. If you don't believe me go seach Tumblr tags for Otherkin, there are communities out there who believe they have the souls of other species, wolves, dragons and in some cases supernatural beings and even fictional characters. No doubt most are content with an online second life but a few claim to feel dysphoria from missing tails, wings and ears, talking about feeling triggered when they look in a mirror and what they feel isn't there. Unsurprisingly prosthetics and modifications are slowly becoming more common to deal with these feelings.

It's both fascinating and disconcerting when you really start looking into the politics of identity and find your self falling into a rabbit hole of possibilities.

[Len Cnut]

I wouldn't tell Jenner that her feelings are wrong because transgenderism is a real thing. You can see it from a young age and its glaringly obvious in many cases, just like a child being gay.

It's not social, it's genetically in the child.

Saying you feel black or white is total bullocks.

Hey, I feel blue - avatar made me think it and the smurfs confirmed it.

Call me wrong and I'll say "you can't tell me how I feel"

Your wrong Chris and i can confirm your not blue or a smurf by looking at a picture of you on your bike you silly sod

His photography over at Stamford Bridge skews the matter somewhat i feel.

[alfierose]

Blonde Brazilian man undergoes surgery to become Korean

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645950/I-fun-bein-Korean-Blonde-Brazilian-man-undergoes-extraordinary-surgery-achieve-convincing-Oriental-look.html

[gunsguy]

Assume everything is a lie. Especially in politics.

That is the right answer

[Gordon Comstock]

[downzy]

There's a difference between self-identifying out of an innate sense of self and misrepresenting oneself for material and personal gain. This woman clearly seems to be an example of the latter.

I would assume that most who identify with a gender different than their own do so out of an innate sense of self. The process of reorienting ones self is both cumbersome and expensive. It's not something that many would pursue for material gain.

What this woman seems to be doing is something different altogether. It would be one thing if she were to acknowledge her white ancestry and upbringing and that her decision to identify as black is some sort of statement on race. I do subscribe to the concept of race being a social construction far more than it is a biological. And if her attempt here was simply to bring attention to race as such, then I'd have no problem with that.

However, that's not what she's doing. I've seen reports that she's misrepresented who her biological father is. When asked if she descends from white ancestry, she refuses to answer the question. She lied and misrepresented herself for material gain.

It's a matter of motivation. Transgender individuals identify themselves as male or female because of an innate sense of self. Barack Obama identifies as black despite growing up with his white mother and grandmother because his appearance makes everyone he encounters to view himself as a black man. This woman does not fit into either of those categories. She did it for material gain and took advantage of an institution meant to promote and help African-American people and issues.

There is little to defend here.

[arnold layne]

This woman is a hero, and a very courageous one at that.

If she "feels" like she is black - then the rest of us should address her as being a black woman.

Not sure what the problem is here?

LOL

[Chris1989]

I wouldn't tell Jenner that her feelings are wrong because transgenderism is a real thing. You can see it from a young age and its glaringly obvious in many cases, just like a child being gay.

It's not social, it's genetically in the child.

Saying you feel black or white is total bullocks.

Hey, I feel blue - avatar made me think it and the smurfs confirmed it.

Call me wrong and I'll say "you can't tell me how I feel"

Your wrong Chris and i can confirm your not blue or a smurf by looking at a picture of you on your bike you silly sod

Damnit, me and Papa Smurf are going to open a can of whoop ass on y'all.

Anyway, it's my turn with smurfette tonight.

[alfierose]

There's a difference between self-identifying out of an innate sense of self and misrepresenting oneself for material and personal gain. This woman clearly seems to be an example of the latter.

I would assume that most who identify with a gender different than their own do so out of an innate sense of self. The process of reorienting ones self is both cumbersome and expensive. It's not something that many would pursue for material gain.

What this woman seems to be doing is something different altogether. It would be one thing if she were to acknowledge her white ancestry and upbringing and that her decision to identify as black is some sort of statement on race. I do subscribe to the concept of race being a social construction far more than it is a biological. And if her attempt here was simply to bring attention to race as such, then I'd have no problem with that.

However, that's not what she's doing. I've seen reports that she's misrepresented who her biological father is. When asked if she descends from white ancestry, she refuses to answer the question. She lied and misrepresented herself for material gain.

It's a matter of motivation. Transgender individuals identify themselves as male or female because of an innate sense of self. Barack Obama identifies as black despite growing up with his white mother and grandmother because his appearance makes everyone he encounters to view himself as a black man. This woman does not fit into either of those categories. She did it for material gain and took advantage of an institution meant to promote and help African-American people and issues.

There is little to defend here.

I expect her intrinsic motivations are quite complex and probably rooted in childhood, she grew up as the child of missionaries who adopted four black children who became her siblings. She also appears, at least on the surface, to have attempted positive activism based on her perceived self. I agree lying about her father to perpetuate her reality is wrong as was taking a scholarship meant for black people. However I don't see how this is different from former males having funding directed away from women in areas like education, sport and enterprise.

There is a lot of obfuscation even with the transgender activists, a transwomen (who was formerly a very rich white surgeon and is now CEO of a gender lobby organisation ) wrote a Huffpost piece this week in response to a New York Times open ed by a leading feminist. The NYT article made reference to menstruating which upset Dana as she apparently experienced horrific periods as a 12 year old boy so to suggest this wasn't a lived reality was offensive.

Dana later removed all period references from the Huffpost as it was revealed that her period was actually a prostate issue which required medical intervention. Unpleasant but not the same. Dana also claims to be intersex despite not being tested and having fathered numerous children. A much higher proportion of trans activists claim intersex than is statistically probable based on the actual intersex community, something intersex people are not thrilled about having appropriated.

I think my point here is that identity politics is becoming a really complex and increasingly prominent debate and if the goal is trans people assimilating seamlessly into society then we should be able to have that debate regarding reality and inaccuracies, especially as it filters into legislation, without it being shot down as hate speech. At the moment it's very much a diktat of I feel therefore I am.

[Chris1989]

There is no such definition for race. Everybody lives race differently.

Are we really going to argue that Len, as a minority in Britain, feels the same association to his race as somebody who lives amongst a society where they are the majority?

I love cricket, a good curry, a bit of Bollywood and worked for 4 months in a call centre, did I identify as Indian?

Sorry for the racist stereotypes there, but I have to be absurd in order to show how absurd you are.

[DieselDaisy]

Okay, who will be the first person to start with the Snakepit gags?

[Johnny Drama]

There is no such definition for race. Everybody lives race differently.

Are we really going to argue that Len, as a minority in Britain, feels the same association to his race as somebody who lives amongst a society where they are the majority?

I love cricket, a good curry, a bit of Bollywood and worked for 4 months in a call centre, did I identify as Indian?

Replace the bike with a taxi, throw in a head wobble or two and you're there.

[Dazey]

I love cricket, a good curry, a bit of Bollywood and worked for 4 months in a call centre, did I identify as Indian?

Post of the fucking year right there!!!

[alfierose]

There is no such definition for race. Everybody lives race differently.

Are we really going to argue that Len, as a minority in Britain, feels the same association to his race as somebody who lives amongst a society where they are the majority?

I love cricket, a good curry, a bit of Bollywood and worked for 4 months in a call centre, did I identify as Indian?

Sorry for the racist stereotypes there, but I have to be absurd in order to show how absurd you are.

Of course it's absurd, it's just as absurd as middle aged men claiming they have a female soul and have always been women because they like dolls, the colour pink and nail polish.

Gender and race are social and cultural constructs that vary in expression and performance depending on where you live in the world. Skin colour and sex are biological realities which are the basis of how you are treated as you go through life. The police don't ask whether a black man identifies as white when they pull his vehicle over and nobody asks the young girl about to undergo genital mutilation whether she identifies as a man.

Being able to name biological reality is important otherwise in 50 years time the words woman and black will no longer mean what they have meant historically and not being able to name the terms of oppression is really dangerous. This is exactly what the novel 1984 was about.

[magisme]

not being able to name the terms of oppression is really dangerous

Nailed it.

[spunko12345]

She looks just like Larrys nemesis Wanda from Curb Your Enthusiasm

http://i.imgur.com/OgkVfmr.png

http://www.bet.com/shows/real-husbands-of-hollywood/photos/2013/10/wanda-sykes-best-tv-and-movie-moments/_jcr_content/leftcol/flipbook/flipbookimage_7.flipfeature.dimg/101113-shows-rhoh-wanda-sykes-Curb-Your-Enthusiasm.jpg

[downzy]

There's a difference between self-identifying out of an innate sense of self and misrepresenting oneself for material and personal gain. This woman clearly seems to be an example of the latter.

I would assume that most who identify with a gender different than their own do so out of an innate sense of self. The process of reorienting ones self is both cumbersome and expensive. It's not something that many would pursue for material gain.

What this woman seems to be doing is something different altogether. It would be one thing if she were to acknowledge her white ancestry and upbringing and that her decision to identify as black is some sort of statement on race. I do subscribe to the concept of race being a social construction far more than it is a biological. And if her attempt here was simply to bring attention to race as such, then I'd have no problem with that.

However, that's not what she's doing. I've seen reports that she's misrepresented who her biological father is. When asked if she descends from white ancestry, she refuses to answer the question. She lied and misrepresented herself for material gain.

It's a matter of motivation. Transgender individuals identify themselves as male or female because of an innate sense of self. Barack Obama identifies as black despite growing up with his white mother and grandmother because his appearance makes everyone he encounters to view himself as a black man. This woman does not fit into either of those categories. She did it for material gain and took advantage of an institution meant to promote and help African-American people and issues.

There is little to defend here.

I expect her intrinsic motivations are quite complex and probably rooted in childhood, she grew up as the child of missionaries who adopted four black children who became her siblings. She also appears, at least on the surface, to have attempted positive activism based on her perceived self. I agree lying about her father to perpetuate her reality is wrong as was taking a scholarship meant for black people. However I don't see how this is different from former males having funding directed away from women in areas like education, sport and enterprise.

There is a lot of obfuscation even with the transgender activists, a transwomen (who was formerly a very rich white surgeon and is now CEO of a gender lobby organisation ) wrote a Huffpost piece this week in response to a New York Times open ed by a leading feminist. The NYT article made reference to menstruating which upset Dana as she apparently experienced horrific periods as a 12 year old boy so to suggest this wasn't a lived reality was offensive.

Dana later removed all period references from the Huffpost as it was revealed that her period was actually a prostate issue which required medical intervention. Unpleasant but not the same. Dana also claims to be intersex despite not being tested and having fathered numerous children. A much higher proportion of trans activists claim intersex than is statistically probable based on the actual intersex community, something intersex people are not thrilled about having appropriated.

I think my point here is that identity politics is becoming a really complex and increasingly prominent debate and if the goal is trans people assimilating seamlessly into society then we should be able to have that debate regarding reality and inaccuracies, especially as it filters into legislation, without it being shot down as hate speech. At the moment it's very much a diktat of I feel therefore I am.

Well, we'll have to disagree, because I do see a problem with anyone who choses to "co-opt a position of marginalization and victimization for personal gain."

Undoubtedly it is very difficult for someone to live an identity counter to their innate sense of self, and matters of remaining truthful and honest with not only others but yourself is likely a difficult proposition. However, I believe that most people who self-identify with an identity that's not readily apparent to others would not attempt to cover up and lie about their histories once they start down the journey of transition. Transitioning from a perceived identity to one that parallels an individuals own sense of sense of self is undoubtedly a difficult process, however, most who are genuine and sincere about the matter are not likely to weave a tale of lies and misappropriations in order to do so.

There's a line between obfuscation of identity and outright fraud, in my opinion, this woman clearly belongs in the latter camp.

The article I linked to earlier has a great comparison between Dolezal and Bruno Grosjeans, the guy who attempted to pass himself off as Binjamin Wilkomirski, a Holocaust survivor. It's an interesting comparison, but what I want to highlight here is the author's conclusion, as it serves as the crux of the issue (at least for me):

"Dolezal may get to wear her blackness like an outfit she can take on and off—even if she never actually does discard it, even if she truly does believe that she is black. But actual black Americans will never get that option."

[alfierose]

I do actually agree with you Downzy for the most part. I'm trying to highlight that the objections in this case are the same for someone claiming authentic womanhood.

"Dolezal may get to wear her blackness like an outfit she can take on and off—even if she never actually does discard it, even if she truly does believe that she is black. But actual black Americans will never get that option."

A man may get to wear his female-ness like an outfit he can take on and off—even if he never actually does discard it, even if he truly does believe that he is a woman. But actual women will never get that option."

[Dazey]

Makes you wonder where to draw the line between understanding and just giving somebody a good fucking slap.

[downzy]

I do actually agree with you Downzy for the most part. I'm trying to highlight that the objections in this case are the same for someone claiming authentic womanhood.

"Dolezal may get to wear her blackness like an outfit she can take on and off—even if she never actually does discard it, even if she truly does believe that she is black. But actual black Americans will never get that option."

A man may get to wear his female-ness like an outfit he can take on and off—even if he never actually does discard it, even if he truly does believe that he is a woman. But actual women will never get that option."

Right, and any man who purports themselves to be a woman for the sheer purpose of material gain, and without full disclosure of their history, is just as guilty as Rachel.

I have no doubt that many in the transgender deal with their own personal confusions regarding their identity. But as I stated before, there is a line between obfuscation and outright fraud. I think it does a disservice to those who do experience from gender confusion and have difficulties in navigating through such feelings and people like Rachel Dolezal who actively distorts and misrepresents herself, her history, and those around her for personal gain, whether such gain comes in the form of material possessions or psychological needs.

Read this article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/12/how-did-this-white-woman-convince-everyone-she-was-black.html) and tell me she deserves any level of consideration that we should reserve for those who genuinely transition from one identity from another. She's a fraud who likely suffers from some severe psychological problems that deserve attention.