A Civil Rights Leader Has Disguised Herself As Black For Years, Her Parents Say

[alfierose]

I do actually agree with you Downzy for the most part. I'm trying to highlight that the objections in this case are the same for someone claiming authentic womanhood.

"Dolezal may get to wear her blackness like an outfit she can take on and offeven if she never actually does discard it, even if she truly does believe that she is black. But actual black Americans will never get that option."

A man may get to wear his female-ness like an outfit he can take on and offeven if he never actually does discard it, even if he truly does believe that he is a woman. But actual women will never get that option."

Right, and any man who purports themselves to be a woman for the sheer purpose of material gain, and without full disclosure of their history, is just as guilty as Rachel.

I have no doubt that many in the transgender deal with their own personal confusions regarding their identity. But as I stated before, there is a line between obfuscation and outright fraud. I think it does a disservice to those who do experience from gender confusion and have difficulties in navigating through such feelings and people like Rachel Dolezal who actively distorts and misrepresents herself, her history, and those around her for personal gain, whether such gain comes in the form of material possessions or psychological needs.

Read this article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/12/how-did-this-white-woman-convince-everyone-she-was-black.html) and tell me she deserves any level of consideration that we should reserve for those who genuinely transition from one identity from another. She's a fraud who likely suffers from some severe psychological problems that deserve attention.

How can we tell who is genuine and who is not when legislation starts to support the rights of people to self identify their sex and change all official documents without any need for official or medical approval? You don't even have to make any effort to appear as the opposite sex, it's all based on self reporting feelings. This is happening as we speak. How are women supposed to know whether the person in the locker room with them has genuine intentions or not?

A lot of male prisoners are coming out as transgender and quite a number being moved to women's prisons. Considering the male prison population is about 3-4 times the size of women's it would only take one in every hundred murderer or rapist to claim transgender and move across making 1/8 of the female prison population violent people who were born male. There has ready been at least one case of a transwomen impregnating another inmate in a female prison.

I would like a clear answer on what genuine actually is. If it's living as the other sex and undergoing SRS I could compromise on that but currently legislation is starting to uphold legally the notion of nothing other than gender 'feels'.

[Len Cnut]

Thats one way to take the sting out of a life sentence, chop your bollocks off and end up in a birds prison, less grief all round

[downzy]

I do actually agree with you Downzy for the most part. I'm trying to highlight that the objections in this case are the same for someone claiming authentic womanhood.

"Dolezal may get to wear her blackness like an outfit she can take on and offeven if she never actually does discard it, even if she truly does believe that she is black. But actual black Americans will never get that option."

A man may get to wear his female-ness like an outfit he can take on and offeven if he never actually does discard it, even if he truly does believe that he is a woman. But actual women will never get that option."

Right, and any man who purports themselves to be a woman for the sheer purpose of material gain, and without full disclosure of their history, is just as guilty as Rachel.

I have no doubt that many in the transgender deal with their own personal confusions regarding their identity. But as I stated before, there is a line between obfuscation and outright fraud. I think it does a disservice to those who do experience from gender confusion and have difficulties in navigating through such feelings and people like Rachel Dolezal who actively distorts and misrepresents herself, her history, and those around her for personal gain, whether such gain comes in the form of material possessions or psychological needs.

Read this article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/12/how-did-this-white-woman-convince-everyone-she-was-black.html) and tell me she deserves any level of consideration that we should reserve for those who genuinely transition from one identity from another. She's a fraud who likely suffers from some severe psychological problems that deserve attention.

How can we tell who is genuine and who is not when legislation starts to support the rights of people to self identify their sex and change all official documents without any need for official or medical approval? You don't even have to make any effort to appear as the opposite sex, it's all based on self reporting feelings. This is happening as we speak. How are women supposed to know whether the person in the locker room with them has genuine intentions or not?

A lot of male prisoners are coming out as transgender and quite a number being moved to women's prisons. Considering the male prison population is about 3-4 times the size of women's it would only take one in every hundred murderer or rapist to claim transgender and move across making 1/8 of the female prison population violent people who were born male. There has ready been at least one case of a transwomen impregnating another inmate in a female prison.

I would like a clear answer on what genuine actually is. If it's living as the other sex and undergoing SRS I could compromise on that but currently legislation is starting to uphold legally the notion of nothing other than gender 'feels'.

What I'm trying to get at is that the murky world of self-identification with respect gender shouldn't justify what Rachel Dolezal did. Her actions should not be misconstrued with issues around self-identification. She has exhibited a long pattern of deceit and dishonesty. Matters around self-identity, while confusing for those going through a transition, do not involve such a duplicitous pattern of behaviour. I don't think it's fair to liken those who have genuine self-identity issues and must navigate the challenges associated with the transition with the likes of individuals such as Dolezal, who's issue strikes me as more pathological versus a genuine sense of self identity.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Amber Rose is white?

[alfierose]

She may well be pathological, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is if she was claiming to be a black man the liberal media would be saying 'why the hell do you think you can be black Mr Dolezal?'

If questions can be asked, quite rightly, about Rachel Dolezal then they should be asked about other areas of identity politics too. We have gone beyond people claiming trans who genuinely suffer from dysphoria. It's become much more politicised than that, this isn't a popular opinion I realise but having followed debate in this area fairly closely for the last 18 months or so this is the conclusion I've come to.

[downzy]

She may well be pathological, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is if she was claiming to be a black man the liberal media would be saying 'why the hell do you think you can be black Mr Dolezal?'

If questions can be asked, quite rightly, about Rachel Dolezal then they should be asked about other areas of identity politics too. We have gone beyond people claiming trans who genuinely suffer from dysphoria. It's become much more politicised than that, this isn't a popular opinion I realise but having followed debate in this area fairly closely for the last 18 months or so this is the conclusion I've come to.

She faked a hate crime. She insinuated that her parents beat her and her adopted siblings, with the severity of the beating proportional to the colour of their skin (one of her siblings have denied such accusations). She falsified legal documents to procure benefits that were intended for members of the African community. She misrepresented her birth father and proclaimed that her adopted sibling was actually her adopted child (neither true). She has also been found to misrepresent her stature with the university she reports to work for.

Perhaps I'm quick to judge, but the answer to the question over whether she's pathological seems fairly obvious at this point.

And up until a few days ago, the concept of "trans-racial" did not exist (save for instances when a couple of one race adopts a child of another race). It is now being employed by a woman who is making the false-equivalency to justify her own pathological lies.

[alfierose]

I don't deny any of that to be true although I'm sure given a year or two trans racial will gain some traction even its if only as an Internet thing.

I am interested in the equivalency of how it's viewed and reported with comparison to someone like Fallon Fox.

Fox is an ex military transgender female MMA fighter who lied about her birth sex and origins to gain a licence to compete in the women's league. After two fights suspicions were raised and her transgender status revealed. Despite objections from the majority of female MMA fighters Fox's licence was cleared and the current title holder Tammika Brents was basically told she had to fight Fox or be disqualified.

The fight went ahead amidst some massive anti female social media activity from Fox and her transgender supporters, along the lines of 'make those bitches bleed'. Brents was knocked out in under two minutes and hospitalised with potentially career ending injuries.

Both Dolezal and Fox lied and used born privilege at the expense of another group. Dolezal will probably and correctly lose her professional standing, Fox gained a medal and a career that goes from strength to strength.

Yes trans racial is no doubt bullshit designed to deviate from a web of deceit. I struggle to understand how parallels cannot be drawn between a woman who took a scholarship away from a black person it was ring fenced for and a position as Professor of AA Studies that would have otherwise gone to a black person and a man who diverts sponsorship, training and accolades away from women they were intended for.

The only difference I can come up with is that one has been legitimised by media and authority and the other is yet to be.

[Amir]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/rachel-dolezals-brother-says-she-warned-dont-blow-my-cover

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tamerragriffin/rachel-dolezal-once-told-a-student-she-did-not-look-hispanic

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/did-local-leader-of-naacp-pretend-to-be-black/557730d178c90afd870000c8

[downzy]

I don't deny any of that to be true although I'm sure given a year or two trans racial will gain some traction even its if only as an Internet thing.

I am interested in the equivalency of how it's viewed and reported with comparison to someone like Fallon Fox.

Fox is an ex military transgender female MMA fighter who lied about her birth sex and origins to gain a licence to compete in the women's league. After two fights suspicions were raised and her transgender status revealed. Despite objections from the majority of female MMA fighters Fox's licence was cleared and the current title holder Tammika Brents was basically told she had to fight Fox or be disqualified.

The fight went ahead amidst some massive anti female social media activity from Fox and her transgender supporters, along the lines of 'make those bitches bleed'. Brents was knocked out in under two minutes and hospitalised with potentially career ending injuries.

Both Dolezal and Fox lied and used born privilege at the expense of another group. Dolezal will probably and correctly lose her professional standing, Fox gained a medal and a career that goes from strength to strength.

Yes trans racial is no doubt bullshit designed to deviate from a web of deceit. I struggle to understand how parallels cannot be drawn between a woman who took a scholarship away from a black person it was ring fenced for and a position as Professor of AA Studies that would have otherwise gone to a black person and a man who diverts sponsorship, training and accolades away from women they were intended for.

The only difference I can come up with is that one has been legitimised by media and authority and the other is yet to be.

Fair enough. I think your criticisms of other forms of self-identity and societal acceptance are valid. However, just because there are instances where certain male individuals get away with, and unduly profit from, modifying their identity does not, in my opinion, justify what Dolezal has done.

However, I still don't think the two examples are equal. First, the scientific community seems to support Fox's claim that after many years of clinical treatment, transexual athletes have no substantial advantage over their colleagues in their chosen sports. The fact that Fox sent one of her challengers to the hospital is concerning, however, MMA fighters routinely get sent to the hospital after a fight due to the nature of the sport. Even the IOC has accepted the Stockholm Consensus that has opened the door to transgendered athletes competing in the Olympics. Ultimately, if science tells us that someone who is transexual (versus transgendered) have no biological advantage versus their native sexual competitors, then I have no problem with it. Remember, Fox is a transexual, she has undergone sex-transition therapy to make herself a female. She is not transgendered, i.e someone is still biologically a man but identifies as a woman. To liken Fox with Dolezale's case is to conflate transgendered and transexual.

With respect to the element of misogyny you bring up, let's examine who we're talking about. No offence to UFC fans, but we're not talking about a group of individuals who glow progressive feminist ideals. Much like boxing and wrestling, UFC is largely a for male by male sport where gender and sex roles are clearly delineated and enforced.

The problem with your Fox and Dolezal comparison is that unlike Fox, there is nothing Dolezal can do to transition into a black identify from a biological standpoint. She comes from white ancestry and up until ten years ago, identified only as being white. Biologically speaking, Fox is more female now than male; Dolezal is still white whether she thinks of herself as black or not.

Jamelle Bouie over at Slate does a great job of why Dolezal should not receive any of the same consideration as transgendered individuals. I recommend you, and everyone else, take the time to read it, but for the sake of expediency, I've copied the second half that gets to root of the matter:

On one hand, “black” is a statement of identity. It describes a certain culture and a certain history, tied to the lives and experiences of enslaved Africans and their descendants. It’s a fluid culture, with room for a huge variety of people, from whites, to blacks, to people of Latin American and Caribbean descent.

On the other hand, however, it describes the bottom rung in the American racial hierarchy. It’s a construct, but it was built from physical features, as colonial Americans took Africans, made them slaves, and made them “black.” It designates the people who could be enslaved; the people who had to live under Jim Crow; the people who could be denied mortgage loans and crammed into ghettos; the people who can be plundered by petty municipal authorities.

The two are separate but related. I am a descendent of slaves with strong African features. This makes me culturally black—I identify with the American national group—and racially black; I’m more likely to face overt discrimination than my white friends. And in all likelihood, this would also be true if my mother (or father) were white. I would still have African features, I would still have a connection to black American history, and I would still occupy the bottom rung of the racial hierarchy. But if I were born with lighter skin and more European features, I might be able to escape the stigma of blackness. I would still have the cultural connection, but I wouldn’t occupy the same place in the hierarchy.

What’s key is that you can’t choose your position in the hierarchy. The political designation of race is a function of power—or, put differently, you are whatever the dominant group says you are. A Nigerian immigrant might not identify with black Americans, but she’s still “black,” regardless of what she says, and if she gets pulled over by the police, that identity will matter most. And on the other end, a black American with dark skin and African features could identify as white with her friends, but in society, she’s black, regardless of how she feels.

Which brings us back to Rachel Dolezal. Is she black just because she says she is?

In her favor are key parts of her life. Dolezal has identified as black for almost 10 years. She’s been heavily involved in the local black community, and a leader on issues important to black people. She has no apparent black ancestry—a real difference from blacks who pass—but she’s adopted a kind of black culture almost wholesale. If Walter Francis White is black, and Mordecai Wyatt Johnson is black, then why can’t Rachel Dolezal be black, even if her connections were manufactured?

Then again, her story involves lies and misrepresentations. She passed off a darker-skinned stranger as her father, and an adopted sibling as her son. There’s a chance she faked a hate crime against her, and she falsely claimed she was born in a tepee with a family that hunted for its food. She says she’s black, but we don’t know if she’s always black. Is she black when she’s purchasing a home? Talking to the police? Or is she black only when vying for a role where lived experience would help her odds?

To belong to the black community is to inherit a rich and important culture; to be racially black is to face discrimination and violence. And that has often gone for whites who identify with blacks, or for blacks who appear to be white. When investigating a lynching in Arkansas, White had to flee when locals learned he was a black man “masquerading” as a white one. Viola Liuzzo, a civil rights activist, was shot dead by Klansmen for assisting other activists. She was white.

We don’t know the entirety of Dolezal’s story, and we will likely learn more. If it’s troubling, it’s at least partly because it feels like Dolezal is adopting the culture without carrying the burdens. And with the fake father and the fake children, it seems like she’s deceiving people for the sake of an à la carte blackness, in which you take the best parts, and leave the pain aside.

[magisme]

Fox is an ex military transgender female MMA fighter who lied about her birth sex and origins to gain a licence to compete in the women's league. After two fights suspicions were raised and her transgender status revealed. Despite objections from the majority of female MMA fighters Fox's licence was cleared and the current title holder Tammika Brents was basically told she had to fight Fox or be disqualified.

The fight went ahead amidst some massive anti female social media activity from Fox and her transgender supporters, along the lines of 'make those bitches bleed'. Brents was knocked out in under two minutes and hospitalised with potentially career ending injuries.

Madness.

[alfierose]

'Fair enough. I think your criticisms of other forms of self-identity and societal acceptance are valid. However, just because there are instances where certain male individuals get away with, and unduly profit from, modifying their identity does not, in my opinion, justify what Dolezal has done.'

I'm not try to justify Dolezal, I agree with your points.

The science around whether transgender athletes have advantage is conflicted, for those that insist that HRT reverses the effects of testosterone there are others who state that 15 years of post puberty muscle, strength and bone density is not significantly erased. I realise fighting is fighting per se but at the time it was reported that women's MMA had never seen such a violent fight until that point.

Although it's politeness to acknowledge someone by their preferred gender and pronouns we'll have to disagree on Fox being more biologically female than male, it's not clear whether she had SRS but regardless I'm not comfortable with the idea that woman is essentially a skin you can put on and modify to suit particularly when the behaviour often doesn't follow suit. I'm not just thinking of Fox in this instance but of the many examples of violent and misogynistic rhetoric that I've seen spewed online by people who also want you to accept them as a fellow female. It creates a special kind of cognitive dissonance to have to hold the two notions in your head at the same time.

We could back and forth all day going over examples so maybe we'll have agree to differing levels of investment in what it means to be female and where appropriation begins and ends. I don't think it's particularly suprising that there was such a visceral outcry at Dolezal because the concept of blackface was outlawed as hugely inappropriate many years ago but drag (the parody of a man's idea of female) is still a very popular form of entertainment.

To reiterate what I said further up thread, the powerful diktat of language change in use and meaning that has been creeping in especially via UK liberal media means that it's unlikely anyone will even be able to name the terms of oppression correctly. I really hope that trans racial does turn out to be the isolated pathology of one person.

[MB.]

When it comes to sport a birth certificate should be looked into. Only born as a woman should be able to do women sports.

A man is totally different build, the muscle structure and such. It's not fair, trans could dominate women's sports if they are allowed in.

[alfierose]

When it comes to sport a birth certificate should be looked into. Only born as a woman should be able to do women sports.

A man is totally different build, the muscle structure and such. It's not fair, trans could dominate women's sports if they are allowed in.

It already happens.

Fifty year old ex naval officer joins college girls basketball team.

[MB.]

When it comes to sport a birth certificate should be looked into. Only born as a woman should be able to do women sports.

A man is totally different build, the muscle structure and such. It's not fair, trans could dominate women's sports if they are allowed in.

It already happens.

Fifty year old ex naval officer joins college girls basketball team.

Totally ridicullous. I am all for same rights and the possiblility for them to change gender, just don't do women sports after puberty. And certainly not at a (semi) proffesional level.

Also I don't understand why they even want that. They know it's not fair, why push those buttons. It only makes it harder for transgender people to be accepted.

Edited June 14, 2015 by MB.

[alfierose]

When it comes to sport a birth certificate should be looked into. Only born as a woman should be able to do women sports.

A man is totally different build, the muscle structure and such. It's not fair, trans could dominate women's sports if they are allowed in.

It already happens.

Fifty year old ex naval officer joins college girls basketball team.

Totally ridicullous. I am all for same rights and the possiblility for them to change gender, just don't do women sports after puberty. And certainly not at a (semi) proffesional level.

Also I don't understand why they even want that. They know it's not fair, why push those buttons. It only makes it harder for transgender people to be accepted.

There's a transwomen called Miranda Yardley http://mirandayardley.com/ who wishes to be considered female in a social context whilst acknowledging she is biologically male. She makes some good, salient points, she is also a massive rock and metal fan and is publisher of a music magazine Terrorrizer.

Unfortunately she gets masses of hate thrown at her from the transgender community for recognising reality.

[Len Cnut]

Well...that equality bollocks certainly lasted long, didnt it?

[MB.]

When it comes to sport a birth certificate should be looked into. Only born as a woman should be able to do women sports.

A man is totally different build, the muscle structure and such. It's not fair, trans could dominate women's sports if they are allowed in.

It already happens.

Fifty year old ex naval officer joins college girls basketball team.

Totally ridicullous. I am all for same rights and the possiblility for them to change gender, just don't do women sports after puberty. And certainly not at a (semi) proffesional level.

Also I don't understand why they even want that. They know it's not fair, why push those buttons. It only makes it harder for transgender people to be accepted.

There's a transwomen called Miranda Yardley http://mirandayardley.com/ who wishes to be considered female in a social context whilst acknowledging she is biologically male. She makes some good, salient points, she is also a massive rock and metal fan and is publisher of a music magazine Terrorrizer.

Unfortunately she gets masses of hate thrown at her from the transgender community for recognising reality.

That's a very good blog. Liked what she is saying all the way.

[DieselDaisy]

The real test of her 'blackness' would arrive whence Pit is unleashed in her vicinity. Snakes can sniff out ethnic fanny from miles away. If she ends up home alone with only a microwave meal from Asda for company, she is white.

[Bumblefeet]

Everything is coming out now about this woman, she didn't just abuse her supposed racial background to get a scholarship at a black university and other positions, she is also suspected to have staged various racist acts to further her cause:

Edited June 16, 2015 by Bumblefeet

[Len Cnut]

she is also suspected to have staged various racist acts to further her cause

I think i like her

[streak]

She obviously isn't well.

[Johnny Drama]

Is it just me or is she kinda semi quarter fit in some photos but then full Cleveland steamed pork dumpling in some of the others?

[streak]

Few drinks johnny and you'll be fine

[Iron MikeyJ]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

As others have said, you can't just cherry pick what is ok and what is not. Its all or nothing. Once this flood gate for opened I knew Shit would roll, I called it in the other thread a couple of weeks ago.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[Gordon Comstock]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle