A Civil Rights Leader Has Disguised Herself As Black For Years, Her Parents Say

[Apollo]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle

But I think the point - or debate - is why do YOU get to choose for this other person?

I just spent a week in Deep South Texas and people are saying the things you and others have said in this thread about Jenner. Cowboy Ted feels the same way about Jenner as you and Downzy feel about this lady. Why is your opinion more valid than Cowboy Ted?

Len makes the best point. It's not our place to cherry pick who can change their self. Once we open the door, you have to let everybody enter.

If Bruce "feels" like he is a woman and wants to be called a woman....and we MUST accept it and obey his wishes - then we have to do the same for somebody else who claims they have felt "black" since they were a little girl. No difference.

Alfie and Lenny have won this thread IMO. Also big props to everybody for debating without insulting.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Apollo

[downzy]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle

But I think the point - or debate - is why do YOU get to choose for this other person?

I just spent a week in Deep South Texas and people are saying the things you and others have said in this thread about Jenner. Cowboy Ted feels the same way about Jenner as you and Downzy feel about this lady. Why is your opinion more valid than Cowboy Ted?

Len makes the best point. It's not our place to cherry pick who can change their self. Once we open the door, you have to let everybody enter.

If Bruce "feels" like he is a woman and wants to be called a woman....and we MUST accept it and obey his wishes - then we have to do the same for somebody else who claims they have felt "black" since they were a little girl. No difference.

Alfie and Lenny have won this thread IMO. Also big props to everybody for debating without insulting.

Because "Cowboy" Ted knows fuck all about what he's talking about.

There is a preponderance of evidence that transgender individuals begin to identify with the "other" gender at an early age. True, Rachel Dolezal claims that to be the case, but considering she filed a legal complaint against Howard University because at the time she saw herself as white a decade ago, her claims are highly dubious.

What Dolezal is doing here is co-opting the language transgender individuals use to describe their feelings and their often difficult periods of transition to justify her own batshit craziness. She's a fraud - there is no argument about this. The problem then becomes this: if she's a fraud, and "transracial" is no different than transgendered relative to self-identifying, then transgendered individuals must be frauds as well. To say that she and Caitlyn Jenner are one in the same is to do damage to the transgender community. There are estimated to be roughly 700,000 self-identified trans-gendered individuals in the U.S. If we accept the fraudulent notion of "transracial," which, up until a few days ago, never existed anywhere outside of the description of the adoption process, then ipso facto all those within the transgender community must also be a fraud. Bullshit.

The American Psychological Association has long recognized that one's gender identity may not conform to the sex bestowed at birth. It has never found the same when it comes to race. So again, Dolezal is either the first and it's something the APA missed, or she's knowing or unknowingly using the language of a recognized psychological phenomenon to justify her deceitful actions.

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity. Contrast that Dolezal, who's "transition" involves "layers of deception - the Howard lawsuit, the false claim to an African-American father, the refusal to correct newspapers that misidentified her as “biracial”."

[bran]

it was funny how she was white all of a sudden when she sued howard university for "discrimination" when she was passed for a job because she was "white". this women is a fraud pure and simple.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Downzy, I respectfully have to say you are wrong on this issue. The details of the case make no difference, it doesn't matter that she has lied,the issue is bigger than that. Whether we all agree or not, this door has been opened, now that it is open we have to accept everyone that is going to walk through it. Welcome to the 21st century....

[downzy]

Downzy, I respectfully have to say you are wrong on this issue. The details of the case make no difference, it doesn't matter that she has lied,the issue is bigger than that. Whether we all agree or not, this door has been opened, now that it is open we have to accept everyone that is going to walk through it. Welcome to the 21st century....

Hey, thanks for telling me wrong and providing jack shit to back up your point.

Yes, in issues like these, details matter. The woman is a fraud. She doesn't get to misappropriate the language of those who have the support of the psychological medical community to justify her bullshit.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Everyone has already said everything that needs to be said, but yet you are still trying to prove your point, that's why I said what I said. No need to get all angry about it.

Like I said, this door has been opened, so nobody has the right to regulate who or why they walk through it.

You can't blur the lines, then come back later and say so and so is crossing the line. It doesn't work that way.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Iron MikeyJ

[downzy]

Everyone has already said everything that needs to be said, but yet you are still trying to prove your point, that's why I said what I said. No need to get all angry about it.

Like I said, this door has been opened, so nobody has the right to regulate who or why they walk through it.

No, apparently not everything has been said if people still make the false equivalence between the scientifically supported concept of transgendered with the bullshit notion of transracial perpetuated by a fraud.

Alfie made some valid points that there are individuals in the transgender community who's motivations are suspicions, but I did not take her comments to suggest that all within the transgendered community are on par with Rachel Dolezal. To say that Dolezal is no different than Caitlyn Jenner is to call Caitlyn Jenner a fraud. And that I have a problem with.

What I fucking hate is when someone chimes in for the sole purpose of telling another person that they're wrong but won't bother providing an explanation as to why. It ranks very high on my list of things that pisses me off. If you think I'm wrong, fine, tell me why. If you can't bother to do me that courtesy, the don't bother fucking posting. So yes, I will get angry at your comments; don't tell me otherwise. I'm entitled to my own emotions so long as I can explain them.

What in particular about my post do you disagree with? Simply stating that I'm wrong isn't going to cut it.

[Iron MikeyJ]

I realize I am late to this particular thread, but I called this exact scenario 2 weeks ago in the Jenner thread. I also discussed this issue to exhaustion in that thread, that's why I am not saying a whole lot, because I have already said it, plus I was watching the nba finals, so I was a little distracted.

But as for this issue, I'm not talking about this woman in particular. she might be the most despicable human in the planet, but that's not the point. The point is if a person can be change their sex, than changing your race is no different. But you seem to have a major problem with that, that's why I said you were wrong. My point is why are we all the sudden drawing the line there? Its ok to change sex, but changing race is wrong? Who gives you or anyone else the right to make that desicion? I for one don't really approve of transgender (which I addressed at length in the other thread) but it we are going to allow it, then fine. But if we are going to allow that, then we have to allow everything that allowing that entails. You can't just pick and choose what is ok, it's all ok or its all not. Which as a society appaerently we are allowing it all. So my point is you can't go and jump down this lady's shit because she is claiming to be black, what gives you the right to say she isn't? Keep in mind every point you make can be made to a transgender.

[downzy]

I realize I am late to this particular thread, but I called this exact scenario 2 weeks ago in the Jenner thread. I also discussed this issue to exhaustion in that thread, that's why I am not saying a whole lot, because I have already said it, plus I was watching the nba finals, so I was a little distracted.

But as for this issue, I'm not talking about this woman in particular. she might be the most despicable human in the planet, but that's not the point. The point is if a person can be change their sex, than changing your race is no different. But you seem to have a major problem with that, that's why I said you were wrong. My point is why are we all the sudden drawing the line there? Its ok to change sex, but changing race is wrong? Who gives you or anyone else the right to make that desicion? I for one don't really approve of transgender (which I addressed at length in the other thread) but it we are going to allow it, then fine. But if we are going to allow that, then we have to allow everything that allowing that entails. You can't just pick and choose what is ok, it's all ok or its all not. Which as a society appaerently we are allowing it all. So my point is you can't go and jump down this lady's shit because she is claiming to be black, what gives you the right to say she isn't? Keep in mind every point you make can be made to a transgender.

You do know the difference between transgender and transexual, right? They're not one in the same. Transgender remain their birth sex, but identify as a member of the opposite gender. There is no equivalency when it comes to race. I have a major problem with your assertion because it's never been supported by science. Your claims to the contrary, transracial has never been something that anyone in the psychological community has supported (at least, none that I have come across). The one exception is when an adopted child appropriates the race of their adoptive parents.

Moreover, there are medical procedures in which one can transition from one sex to another. There is no similar mechanism for race. You can't take a pill and become white or black. It doesn't work like that. There is cultural appropriation of race, but dressing and styling oneself black does not make you black. We allow for transgendered because there's a vast amount of scientific evidence to support it. There is no body of work that supports the kind of self-identification that Rachel Dolezal seems to support. That's the difference. One is backed by a myriad of scientific studies while the other is purported by a huckster.

The other big distinction between those in the transgendered and transexual communities and Dolezal is that those in the transgendered communities don't pretend to speak for their transitioned-to genders. A male who is genuine with their identification with the female gender doesn't pretend to speak for women. More often, they speak for the transgendered community. Dolezal not only misrepresented herself as a black person who descended from black parents, but had the gall that she could speak as a descendant of slaves.

The appropriate analogy here is not Caitlyn Jenner or any other transgendered or transexual individual, but someone who purports to be physically disabled in order to play the victim (mind you, I in no way am equating black people with disabled people). Rachel switches races as she sees fit; suing a university claiming racial discrimination as a white woman, then claiming to be black to help her cause in obtain employment. She is very much the jerk who pulls into a handicap parking spot and then skips to the store. This is not someone who is genuine in her identification; she does so for material gain and her own sick psychological needs.

To suggest she's no different than Caitlyn Jenner or any other sincere transgendered or transexual individual is to ignore the mountain of scientific evidence that validates the latter.

[alfierose]

'The other big distinction between those in the transgendered and transexual communities and Dolezal is that those in the transgendered communities don't pretend to speak for their transitioned-to genders. A male who is genuine with their identification with the female gender doesn't pretend to speak for women.'

Actually they really do, well some anyway. The UK media has increasingly been giving high profile column space to transactivists who are doing just this. It's one of the biggest issues for feminists, the erasure of female voice.

See

Paris Lees - more women should enjoy cat calling and harassment because I love it (The Guardian)

Janet Mock - Prostitution is a liberating thing, especially for children. (A mainstream paper, maybe Guardian)

Susan Talusan - Women should be prioritising transwomen applications for women's colleges and centering studies around us because we have a lot we can teach them. (Recent Mainstream newspaper)

A mainstream press article about women achieving new heights in IT ( these were all former men).

If people are claiming they have always been women then by default their position is that they are speaking for women.

This is just off the top of my head and I can come back and add links later as I need to go on the school run.

I also dispute that there is a raft of evidence supporting gendered brain differences, if that's what you mean by medical evidence.

[streak]

it was funny how she was white all of a sudden when she sued howard university for "discrimination" when she was passed for a job because she was "white". this women is a fraud pure and simple.

yes agreed

and a bit mental

[alfierose]

Something else worth taking into consideration which may or may not be applicable to Dolezal is the reported high occurrence of Autistic Spectrum Disorders in the transgender community. It's been suggested that it's four times as many as in the general population. I find this interesting (on a personal level too as someone with a child with ASD) as not feeling like your peers, feeling different is a common feature. I don't think it's a massive stretch that in some people this could translate as I don't feel like others boys/girls therefore I must be the other.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3896317

There is a piece in the NYT today advocating surgery for under 18's, I really feel a lot more funding needs to be given to investigate the complex reasons why people suffer gender dysphoria before young children are taken down an irreversible route. How many of us who are now 30 or 40 plus regret things we were absolutely convinced of at age 16? I know I do.

[Amir]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/dolezal-wanted-to-boycott-exodus-for-casting-white-actors-as-africans/

[Len Cnut]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/dolezal-wanted-to-boycott-exodus-for-casting-white-actors-as-africans/

If there's one thing that gets right up my arse about films and the history of film criticism where it's like whenever a black person or a white person or an asian person character does something objectionable in a film there's a certain cross-section that are like 'so, are you tryna say that ALL black/white/asian people do that? How dare you, you fucking racist!'

No, I'm fucking not you fucking retard, is Henry Portrait of a Serial Kiler saying all white men are murderers? Is New Jack City saying all black men are drug kingpins? Is Fist of Fury saying that all Asian men are indignant star students of a Kung Fu school seeking revenge for the untimely demise of their master? It's about the most ridiculous notion I've ever come across and every time I hear someone say that shit i wanna smack em around the face with a big wet carp.

It's a fucking film that tells a fucking story with a human being as the central protagonist and one of the handicapps of being a human being is that we are invariably connected to a fucking race, a consequence of this is it is highly likely that one day you might perhaps see your race involved in some sort of behaviour you find morally objectionable, if that bothers you well then go fuck yourself.

How these people must manage to sit through the news I'll never understand.

Transgender remain their birth sex, but identify as a member of the opposite gender.

Eh?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Amir]

Is Fist of Fury saying that all Asian men are indignant star students of a Kung Fu school seeking revenge for the untimely demise of their master?

I thought Fist of Fury's message about Chinese people was pretty clear...

"WE ARE NOT SICK MEN"

[Dazey]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle

Seems to me that it's much easier for a white person to pass as black than it is for a bloke in a dress to pass as female.

[Len Cnut]

Is Fist of Fury saying that all Asian men are indignant star students of a Kung Fu school seeking revenge for the untimely demise of their master?

I thought Fist of Fury's message about Chinese people was pretty clear...

"WE ARE NOT SICK MEN"

I think i just fell in love with you, my favorite movie quote ever!

NOW YOU LISTEN TO ME! CUZ I'LL ONLY SAY ONCE...WE ARE NOT SICK MEN!

*turns around and struts out of the Dojo like a rudeboy, having leathered a fuckload of Japs, cue cool Chinese music*

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle

Seems to me that it's much easier for a white person to pass as black than it is for a bloke in a dress to pass as female.

I knew there was something funny about you! It's your hands, they're a dead giveaway! You've got big flapping hands like a man!

[Chris1989]

This is no different than old Brucie boy deciding he wants to be a girl. Transgenders say all the time that they "feel" like a woman, maybe this girl "feels" black.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with this, but what's fair is fair. If boys can become girls than white folks can decide to be black, it's no different...

It is different. Race and gender are different. A trans person can say they feel like a woman because they wear dresses and take estrogen pills etc, sometimes they even look like real women so you'd think they'd have at least some idea of what it's like to be a woman whereas unless unless a white person is permanently blackfaced or very tan, how could they know what being black is like? Just because they want to be black doesn't mean they can be. Maybe next time I get a tan I'll tell people what it's like livin the struggle

Seems to me that it's much easier for a white person to pass as black than it is for a bloke in a dress to pass as female.

Velvet girl and Snakepit?

[magisme]

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity.

wat

[Dazey]

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity.

wat

It's true y'know! I read that Bruce Jenner's balls were actually going to explode if he didn't put on a dress and cover himself in slap on the cover of Vanity Fair.

[magisme]

Moreover, there are medical procedures in which one can transition from one sex to another.

One of the points here is that, no, despite what some would have us believe, you cannot simply have a medical procedure and rightfully declare yourself the opposite sex.

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity.

wat

It's true y'know! I read that Bruce Jenner's balls were actually going to explode if he didn't put on a dress and cover himself in slap on the cover of Vanity Fair.

The lesson from all of this is that it's super progressive and awesome to pretend words mean things that they don't really mean, until a group I don't like does it, then it's detrimental.

[downzy]

Moreover, there are medical procedures in which one can transition from one sex to another.

One of the points here is that, no, despite what some would have us believe, you cannot simply have a medical procedure and rightfully declare yourself the opposite sex.

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity.

wat

It's true y'know! I read that Bruce Jenner's balls were actually going to explode if he didn't put on a dress and cover himself in slap on the cover of Vanity Fair.

The lesson from all of this is that it's super progressive and awesome to pretend words mean things that they don't really mean, until a group I don't like does it, then it's detrimental.

Actually, in many countries you can, at least from a legal perspective. In fact, here in Canada and in many European nations, it is no longer required to even undergo sexual reassignment surgery in order to have one's sex designation changed on one's birth certificate.

We're not talking about a "group" of people when it comes to Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black are we? We're talking about one individual person who has a history of misrepresentation and outright lying for personal gain and profit.

[Dazey]

Actually, in many countries you can, at least from a legal perspective. In fact, here in Canada and in many European nations, it is no longer required to even undergo sexual reassignment surgery in order to have one's sex designation changed on one's birth certificate.

Which is utter insanity. You shouldn't ever be able to change your gender on your birth certificate, even after full surgery.

[Len Cnut]

Actually, in many countries you can, at least from a legal perspective. In fact, here in Canada and in many European nations, it is no longer required to even undergo sexual reassignment surgery in order to have one's sex designation changed on one's birth certificate.

Which is utter insanity. You shouldn't ever be able to change your gender on your birth certificate, even after full surgery.

Dont worry Skip, your tits may be massive but they aint confusing

[magisme]

Moreover, there are medical procedures in which one can transition from one sex to another.

One of the points here is that, no, despite what some would have us believe, you cannot simply have a medical procedure and rightfully declare yourself the opposite sex.

As Samantha Allen over at the Daily Beast writes, most transgendered individuals transition out of medical necessity.

wat

It's true y'know! I read that Bruce Jenner's balls were actually going to explode if he didn't put on a dress and cover himself in slap on the cover of Vanity Fair.

The lesson from all of this is that it's super progressive and awesome to pretend words mean things that they don't really mean, until a group I don't like does it, then it's detrimental.

Actually, in many countries you can, at least from a legal perspective. In fact, here in Canada and in many European nations, it is no longer required to even undergo sexual reassignment surgery in order to have one's sex designation changed on one's birth certificate.

We're not talking about a "group" of people when it comes to Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black are we? We're talking about one individual person who has a history of misrepresentation and outright lying for personal gain and profit.

I'm not talking from a legal perspective. I mean the debate we've been having. Legality is irrelevant.

It's more than Dolezal now, though, right? People are coming out in support of this. You and I might think it's nuts, but it's not just her.