Confederate flag? Yes or no?

[Len Cnut]

By that rationale what are we doing on a rock band forum at all, when theres disease and starvation and terrorism out there?

[downzy]

None of my business but i vote yes, it represents a part of your countrys history, its not as if anyone waving it at the Olympics,

Same could be said about the Nazi flag with respect to Germany. Feel the same about that flag?

Honestly? Yes. I think free people should be allowed to represent themselves as they wish but bringing that up in this conversation is unfair, why the drawing of a parrallel between that the regime that ennacted the holocaust, cuz of slavery? OK, I can see how or why someone would say that but then why should the Union Jack get away? See what I'm saying, if we're gonna start referring to history to decide this kinda shit then there's gonna have to be a lot more flags pulled down than just the Confederacy, why pick on them? The Nazi flag is more synonymous exclusively with that particular evil regime, it's not the same thing with the flag of the confederacy, it is not the flag of slavery, it represents a lot more, thats just something that happened under it. A massive crime yes, an atrocity...but that isn't the whole of what that flag represents anymore than the whole of what the Union Jack represents is the particular fucked up things that happened under it.

Sorry, but no. The flag was re-intrepreted in the late 1940s to reflect state rights, but up until that point, it was the battle flag flown to represent the states who were supporting the institution of slavery. My suggestion is that you read up on the history of the flag, particularly its misappropriate by Dixie-segragationists in the late 1940s and 1950s.

Free people can do as they please, and other free people can judge the shit out of them based on their actions. If states like South Carolina, Alabama, and Mississippi wish to fly a flag that historically represented the side of the war that fought for their right to have slaves, then they should be shamed and judged accordingly.

Finally, the last time I checked, the losing side does not get to decide which flag to hang.

You're re-framing the argument here as whether or not states should fly it, like officially, i wasnt saying that, i was reacting to Vals question which appeared to be about whether or not it should be gotten rid of wholesale, as in banned altogether.

I dont mind the people that judge those people who, privately, wish to fly the flag...or even the nazi one you bought up, in the latter instance I'd probably be one of them...but banning flags, in a free country, really?

Sorry, my mistake, as I didn't read that distinction. No, I do not believe in banning anything, save for child pornography and the like. I was speaking more to weather the flag could be defended on from a historical perspective.

[luciusfunk]

The Confederate was made in 1861 when the south succeeded from the north at the start of the civil war.

Stopped reading there.

[AxlisOld]

Govt institutions, no, they shouldn't fly it. Private institutions, stay the fuck out, none of your business. Sure, the statehouse shouldn't be flying a flag, but don't you dare tell someone they aren't allowed to on their property.

Much to the shagrin of many, it is a historical symbol. And it is a sign of states' rights. If some interpret it differently, that is their problem. But free expression is free expression, whether it offends you or not. That is the most important thing in all of this. Not whether someone feels offended.

I love the "states rights" argument. Riiggghhhttt. How dare Washington tells us fine folk from South Carolina how to treat our black citizens? A symbol steeped in the institution of slavery, that was later reimagined and popularized as a symbol to counter the black civil rights movement of the 1940s through 1960s, is now suddenly a benign flag bearer for state rights in all matters. Bullshit.

I love the states rights argument as well. Too often states rights nowadays are circumvented, such as marijuana, or gay marriage, or drinking ages. How dare Washington DC tell us to do anything not explicitly granted to them in the constitution? Yea, that's a pretty big part of the founding principle or our country. I don't support the confederacy, or slavery, of anything remotely related. But I will continue to support the freedom to express ones' opinion despite if it offends someone. If a state passes a law, that does not violate a legal federal law (one granted to it by the Constitution) that state law is valid.

Except those things you mentioned have nothing to do with kidnapping people from another continent and enslaving them in barbaric ways. Also if anyone who has a Confederate flag wanted to make a statement about state's rights, why not get a current flag of the state they live in? You know, since it's still actually a thing and isn't a losing entity in a war from exactly 150 years ago...

By that rationale, any flag shouldnot be flown, because it could be associated with kkidnapping someone from a foreign land and making them a slave. Oh and white people were slaves before black people, just saying.

[Black Sabbath]

It's been a rough week for rednecks everywhere.

[downzy]

Govt institutions, no, they shouldn't fly it. Private institutions, stay the fuck out, none of your business. Sure, the statehouse shouldn't be flying a flag, but don't you dare tell someone they aren't allowed to on their property.

Much to the shagrin of many, it is a historical symbol. And it is a sign of states' rights. If some interpret it differently, that is their problem. But free expression is free expression, whether it offends you or not. That is the most important thing in all of this. Not whether someone feels offended.

I love the "states rights" argument. Riiggghhhttt. How dare Washington tells us fine folk from South Carolina how to treat our black citizens? A symbol steeped in the institution of slavery, that was later reimagined and popularized as a symbol to counter the black civil rights movement of the 1940s through 1960s, is now suddenly a benign flag bearer for state rights in all matters. Bullshit.

I love the states rights argument as well. Too often states rights nowadays are circumvented, such as marijuana, or gay marriage, or drinking ages. How dare Washington DC tell us to do anything not explicitly granted to them in the constitution? Yea, that's a pretty big part of the founding principle or our country. I don't support the confederacy, or slavery, of anything remotely related. But I will continue to support the freedom to express ones' opinion despite if it offends someone. If a state passes a law, that does not violate a legal federal law (one granted to it by the Constitution) that state law is valid.

Except those things you mentioned have nothing to do with kidnapping people from another continent and enslaving them in barbaric ways. Also if anyone who has a Confederate flag wanted to make a statement about state's rights, why not get a current flag of the state they live in? You know, since it's still actually a thing and isn't a losing entity in a war from exactly 150 years ago...

By that rationale, any flag shouldnot be flown, because it could be associated with kkidnapping someone from a foreign land and making them a slave. Oh and white people were slaves before black people, just saying.

No, as the Confederate flag flew for one purpose: to rally the troops that fought to defend the institution of slavery. While many immoral actions have been conducted under the banner of the American, British, French, Russian, hell, even Canadian flags, none of those flags are singular in what they represent. What does white being enslaved before black people have anything to do with this conversation?

[dalsh327]

I wonder what would have happened if Myrtle Beach's black bike week was coming up in a few weeks because you'll see the rebel flag.

People have to remember they were still lynching in the 40s-50s-60s in the south so it isn't just talking about the Civil War, it's everything from reconstruction to the Civil Rights Act being passed. And just because something is passed into law doesn't mean people are going along with it. There's still a Klan, but as far as the confederate flag goes and a full on ban..if Warners wants to stop selling a model car from the 70s, someone can't figure out how to make a General Lee decal? Or...who really cares about a rip off of Smokey and the Bandit? "Cooter" who had been a Senator sells Dukes-related merch. John Schneider owns a car and he saw nothing wrong with keeping the flag on his car, "the Dukes weren't racist".

The funny thing is that in the south you do see a lot of integrated couples of all sorts of ages, but you go to a place like Boston you hear some white kid giving a mixed race couple shit. People from the north are moving south for an affordable way of life but they live in pockets through the south, plus you have a lot of veterans who may have grown up in New York moving there because the opportunities are better for them and get some respect.

Do I feel the shooting should be used as a reason to go after the flag? No, but they'd be focusing on gun laws more, and it's getting harder for someone to defend their right to own anything more than a rifle and a pistol. They can have it to where you can legally own certain types of rifles as a citizen, but anything above and beyond that, you have to be in a "militia" of some sort, like Homeland Security or a volunteer for the local police department (which wouldn't be bad because that's serving the community). It's tricky because a lot of people make money off of firearms in some way - selling, collecting, running gun ranges, gun clubs.

[Crazyman]

Govt institutions, no, they shouldn't fly it. Private institutions, stay the fuck out, none of your business. Sure, the statehouse shouldn't be flying a flag, but don't you dare tell someone they aren't allowed to on their property.

Much to the shagrin of many, it is a historical symbol. And it is a sign of states' rights. If some interpret it differently, that is their problem. But free expression is free expression, whether it offends you or not. That is the most important thing in all of this. Not whether someone feels offended.

I love the "states rights" argument. Riiggghhhttt. How dare Washington tells us fine folk from South Carolina how to treat our black citizens? A symbol steeped in the institution of slavery, that was later reimagined and popularized as a symbol to counter the black civil rights movement of the 1940s through 1960s, is now suddenly a benign flag bearer for state rights in all matters. Bullshit.

I love the states rights argument as well. Too often states rights nowadays are circumvented, such as marijuana, or gay marriage, or drinking ages. How dare Washington DC tell us to do anything not explicitly granted to them in the constitution? Yea, that's a pretty big part of the founding principle or our country. I don't support the confederacy, or slavery, of anything remotely related. But I will continue to support the freedom to express ones' opinion despite if it offends someone. If a state passes a law, that does not violate a legal federal law (one granted to it by the Constitution) that state law is valid.

Except those things you mentioned have nothing to do with kidnapping people from another continent and enslaving them in barbaric ways. Also if anyone who has a Confederate flag wanted to make a statement about state's rights, why not get a current flag of the state they live in? You know, since it's still actually a thing and isn't a losing entity in a war from exactly 150 years ago...

By that rationale, any flag shouldnot be flown, because it could be associated with kkidnapping someone from a foreign land and making them a slave. Oh and white people were slaves before black people, just saying.

And what does that have to do with "state's rights" in 2015 (aka 150 years after the flag in question stopped being a relevant thing)? Slavery is no longer an issue in this country because the Union won the war and put an end to it. (Actual) state's rights is still a thing - state's can make their own laws as long as it doesn't deny people basic human rights and liberties, for example.

[Snake-Pit]

I've never been 'to the South' but it's pretty clear that people do feel connected to it still as a region and, why not? History has the identity, but reasons probably change - I doubt 'The South' want to be 'Slave Owners' anymore but they still feel connected to 'The South' - And why not? it's their flag.

History Channel has taught me that, before the Civil War, 'The South' sounded like everyone else - but during that bloody war that raised the Rebel flag, the Southern Accent was born - according to How The States Got Their Shapes.

[bran]

being a northerner who ended up living in the south for almost a decade its quite different how the south views and teaches the civil war and its causes. in the north it has always been slavery with all other reasons branching out from there. in the south (where i lived anyway) "civil war" was rarely if ever used, its usually called "the war between the states", "war of southern independence" or my personal favorite "the war of northern aggression"

in the south they are taught the root cause of the war was lincoln's election in 1860 and the use of states rights to start breaking away from the union. to them slavery was just one of the reasons but for them states rights was THE reason. if this is the stuff that is being taught throughout the south its not really shocking that some view the flag a little differently than those in the north or in other countries. the flag is very offensive to a lot of black people i understand but i have seen a large amount of black people wearing the flag on clothes and flying it on their lawn. like i said i never liked the flag, but i was taught it stood for a country that fought and died to keep people in chains its just a difference in perspective and upbringing.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I think the Confederate flag represents an idea that nearly destroyed my country. I consider modern day Confederate sympathizers no different than neo-nazis and neo-facists but for some reason more tolerable because all the people who fought are long dead.

[DieselDaisy]

My own belief is, the Confederate flag represents a certain fault line in history. Firstly, it represents 'Old South' exceptionalism which existed in antebellum America, a time before Sherman and the subsequent carpetbaggers. The south as it hitherto existed was completely alien to the rest of the country, dominated as it was by a 'gentlemanly' aristocracy sustained on chattel slavery and 'king cotton'. The forces of 'federalism', of banking, currency, industry and railways, etc. were either tremendously under-developed or non-existent in the agricultural south. The flag therefore represents a (failed) attempt to maintain that southern exceptionalism. Secondly, the flag is connected with a pride in the military exploits of Lee and Jackson and a commemoration of the dead to sustain a doomed cause, an American götterdämmerung while doging slavery. Veterans of the Africa Korps similarly triumphed in the exploits of Rommel while somehow avoiding connotations of Nazism (strangely British historiography largely followed their example). There is something strangely intoxicating about the Confederate cause when you consider the fact that that the North had a potential three-to-one superiority in manpower and a tremendous industrial advantage over the southern states. Malnourished tatty but plucky Johnny Reb outfought everything the Yankees threw against it - at least in the eastern theatre - until Pickett's Charge. Even after Gettysburg there is a tremendous romantic interest connected with a brave but ultimately futile last stand, as Lee kept denying his flank to Grant and entrenching.

In contrast the federal cause appears hopelessly unromantic, clunky, whiggish and sanctimonious. It seems the cause of hatchet faced women and busybody Victorian debating societies. Union generals lack the glamour of a Lee or a Jackson and seem (somewhat unfairly) to have prevailed by merely marshaling superior industrial resources. To paraphrase Clarendon when discussing England's civil war: ''the Roundheads were right but repulsive and the Cavaliers wrong but romantic'. Substitute 'Yankees' for Roundheads and 'Rebels' for Cavaliers and the quote seems apt.

Edited June 28, 2015 by DieselDaisy

[Johnny Drama]

Not american but...

Really all I came here to say.

But still no.

[Len Cnut]

It's been a rough week for rednecks everywhere.

Y'know, if someone was saying shit like 'well the n!ggers certainly had a rough week, what with Charlestown and all' that wouldnt be okay and thats like the umpteenth time you've made mention of rednecks, its kinda dull of you, just saying.

[IZZYISGNR]

Confederate Constitution left the door open for slavery to be abolished if the States so chose. They even freed slaves during the war and kept fighting. On top of the top Generals like Lee were vocal opponents of the practice, not sure how much clearer it can be made that slavery was not the issue. Also there were white slaves and white indentured servants than black slaves and just as many black slave owners in the Deep Southern states of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi as white owners. But of course we no longer want to learn history.

What the left is doing now is extremely infantile. Blaming the south for slavery is a bit like blaming democracy for slavery+denying equal rights to women and children (remember Greek democracy?) It's beyond stupid, and the only goal here is political promotion based on false propaganda. Do not engage liberals in debate, because they do not debate - they lie and defame.

Outlaw whatever you want, I'll remain a rebel in my heart until the day I die defending the freedoms of men to reject Federal governance, big government and the idea that men can't govern themselves.

Stay strong Dixie!

One of President Lincoln's favorite songs, just saying.

Edited June 28, 2015 by IZZYISGNR

[Forsaken]

Yes. Simple.

A lot of people have shallow beliefs about what the confederate flag represented.

[tomfriend]

Ban all flags. Abolish all national anthems. Stop taking 'pride' in whatever patch of dirt your parents happened to fuck on.

If you're going to remain a 'rebel in your heart' anyway, what the hell do you need a piece of cloth for anyway? Do what every other rebel does. Get a shit tattoo and marry a fat chick called Brenda.

[downzy]

Confederate Constitution left the door open for slavery to be abolished if the States so chose. They even freed slaves during the war and kept fighting. On top of the top Generals like Lee were vocal opponents of the practice, not sure how much clearer it can be made that slavery was not the issue. Also there were white slaves and white indentured servants than black slaves and just as many black slave owners in the Deep Southern states of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi as white owners. But of course we no longer want to learn history.

What the left is doing now is extremely infantile. Blaming the south for slavery is a bit like blaming democracy for slavery+denying equal rights to women and children (remember Greek democracy?) It's beyond stupid, and the only goal here is political promotion based on false propaganda. Do not engage liberals in debate, because they do not debate - they lie and defame.

Outlaw whatever you want, I'll remain a rebel in my heart until the day I die defending the freedoms of men to reject Federal governance, big government and the idea that men can't govern themselves.

Stay strong Dixie!

One of President Lincoln's favorite songs, just saying.

Fuck off with your revisionist bullshit. There's no denying that Lincoln, though he fought to end the institution of slavery in the United States, was also a noted bigot and held deeply racist views on current and former slaves. It is also true that many in the North benefited financially from the existence to slavery.

But to suggest that the Civil War was fought for reasons other than Southern states' right to defend slavery is rubbish. As noted in one of the articles I posted earlier:

The Northern population's mounting hostility to slavery during the 1850s—and especially to its continuing spread within the U.S.—led southern states to leave the Union and initiate the Civil War. The first state to secede, South Carolina, explicitly did so to safeguard "the right of property in slaves" against attempts by "the non-slaveholding States" to judge "the propriety of our domestic institutions" and to deny "the rights of property" in human beings. Slave states bolted from the Union and formed the Confederacy, as South Carolina announced, because of "the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery." The Confederacy's founders agreed with the influential Charleston newspaper, the Mercury, that Lincoln’s election foretold “the extinction of slavery” throughout the old Union.

In 1861 Confederate president Jefferson Davis reminded his congress that because “the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable” to southern prosperity. “With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled” by the election to the presidency of an antislavery man like Abraham Lincoln, he declared, “the people of the Southern States were driven . . . to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.” The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." The new slaveholders' republic fashioned itself a constitution that reflected secession's central purpose. In most ways a carbon copy of the U. S. Constitution, the South's version distinguished itself by guaranteeing that no “law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves” would ever be enacted by a Confederate government.

[Silent Jay]

Thanks GNFNR

[Słash]

We live in a world where we are fighting and arguing over a flag, I guess we should be more open minded and think the world as one and not just countries, some people go over the board in patriotism and if the other person doesn't want to say the national anthem the patriotic people go crazy on him, its good to be patriotic for your country, but going like AMERICA IS THE BEST and all the shit goes over my mind, a person should have all the right to do what in wants, even in this it depends on what things, if you are not hurting anyone in any manner then you can do whatever you want

[Len Cnut]

Confederate Constitution left the door open for slavery to be abolished if the States so chose. They even freed slaves during the war and kept fighting. On top of the top Generals like Lee were vocal opponents of the practice, not sure how much clearer it can be made that slavery was not the issue. Also there were white slaves and white indentured servants than black slaves and just as many black slave owners in the Deep Southern states of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi as white owners. But of course we no longer want to learn history.

What the left is doing now is extremely infantile. Blaming the south for slavery is a bit like blaming democracy for slavery+denying equal rights to women and children (remember Greek democracy?) It's beyond stupid, and the only goal here is political promotion based on false propaganda. Do not engage liberals in debate, because they do not debate - they lie and defame.

Outlaw whatever you want, I'll remain a rebel in my heart until the day I die defending the freedoms of men to reject Federal governance, big government and the idea that men can't govern themselves.

Stay strong Dixie!

One of President Lincoln's favorite songs, just saying.

Fuck off with your revisionist bullshit. There's no denying that Lincoln, though he fought to end the institution of slavery in the United States, was also a noted bigot and held deeply racist views on current and former slaves. It is also true that many in the North benefited financially from the existence to slavery.

But to suggest that the Civil War was fought for reasons other than Southern states' right to defend slavery is rubbish. As noted in one of the articles I posted earlier:

The Northern population's mounting hostility to slavery during the 1850s—and especially to its continuing spread within the U.S.—led southern states to leave the Union and initiate the Civil War. The first state to secede, South Carolina, explicitly did so to safeguard "the right of property in slaves" against attempts by "the non-slaveholding States" to judge "the propriety of our domestic institutions" and to deny "the rights of property" in human beings. Slave states bolted from the Union and formed the Confederacy, as South Carolina announced, because of "the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery." The Confederacy's founders agreed with the influential Charleston newspaper, the Mercury, that Lincoln’s election foretold “the extinction of slavery” throughout the old Union.

In 1861 Confederate president Jefferson Davis reminded his congress that because “the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable” to southern prosperity. “With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled” by the election to the presidency of an antislavery man like Abraham Lincoln, he declared, “the people of the Southern States were driven . . . to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.” The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." The new slaveholders' republic fashioned itself a constitution that reflected secession's central purpose. In most ways a carbon copy of the U. S. Constitution, the South's version distinguished itself by guaranteeing that no “law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves” would ever be enacted by a Confederate government.

Explain something to me, your issue is with the confederate flag representing slavery, right? Well even after it was abolished, under the stars and stripes, black folks didn't exactly have a good time of it, what is it about a flag representing atrocity AND something else that absolves the atrocious aspect? I mean America was built on slavery, prospered because of it and continued the oppression of black people under its name for centuries afterwards, so why does one get off and the other not?

[SunnyDRE]

In my experience, it's represented by rednecks and people who think they're racist. I've never seen someone show that flag purely for the "real" or "original" meaning behind it, because just like the Nazi flag, the meaning behind it has been changed over the course of history, no matter how much someone wants to argue whatever it's original or true meaning is.

That said, leave it out of public places (state houses, etc.), but if some asshole wants to display it in their front yard, so be it. Just a warning to people that they're an asshole.

This guy gets it.

States rights my a**...thats part of the whole reimagining of the Civil War that is going on. It was never about slavery to hear some people today tell it...Also, I wonder those of you who are commenting on it ..have you ever been to the South besides Florida and going to the beaches, once you get past Jacksonville, Florida isn't like the rest of the South. The thing with the flag isn't a new issue, it has been an issue in the South for years. For a few it does represent state rights, history, culture, etc. but to most it really does mean hatred, bigotry, I'm better than you because I'm white. You guys do realize that the KKK still exist right? It is the flag they use. Hell, they just marched 30 miles from were a live at a few months ago.....and sh*t, two dudes just went to prison for burning crosses in african americans yards, in the city I live in, which is suppose to be one of the better cities to live in, in Alabama. People want to fly the flag I don't care, but if I see it on your car and outside your house, I will assume you are racist.

Edited June 28, 2015 by SunnyDRE

[Dazey]

Thanks GNFNR

Can we ban that from all public buildings?

[downzy]

Confederate Constitution left the door open for slavery to be abolished if the States so chose. They even freed slaves during the war and kept fighting. On top of the top Generals like Lee were vocal opponents of the practice, not sure how much clearer it can be made that slavery was not the issue. Also there were white slaves and white indentured servants than black slaves and just as many black slave owners in the Deep Southern states of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi as white owners. But of course we no longer want to learn history.

What the left is doing now is extremely infantile. Blaming the south for slavery is a bit like blaming democracy for slavery+denying equal rights to women and children (remember Greek democracy?) It's beyond stupid, and the only goal here is political promotion based on false propaganda. Do not engage liberals in debate, because they do not debate - they lie and defame.

Outlaw whatever you want, I'll remain a rebel in my heart until the day I die defending the freedoms of men to reject Federal governance, big government and the idea that men can't govern themselves.

Stay strong Dixie!

One of President Lincoln's favorite songs, just saying.

Fuck off with your revisionist bullshit. There's no denying that Lincoln, though he fought to end the institution of slavery in the United States, was also a noted bigot and held deeply racist views on current and former slaves. It is also true that many in the North benefited financially from the existence to slavery.

But to suggest that the Civil War was fought for reasons other than Southern states' right to defend slavery is rubbish. As noted in one of the articles I posted earlier:

The Northern population's mounting hostility to slavery during the 1850s—and especially to its continuing spread within the U.S.—led southern states to leave the Union and initiate the Civil War. The first state to secede, South Carolina, explicitly did so to safeguard "the right of property in slaves" against attempts by "the non-slaveholding States" to judge "the propriety of our domestic institutions" and to deny "the rights of property" in human beings. Slave states bolted from the Union and formed the Confederacy, as South Carolina announced, because of "the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery." The Confederacy's founders agreed with the influential Charleston newspaper, the Mercury, that Lincoln’s election foretold “the extinction of slavery” throughout the old Union.

In 1861 Confederate president Jefferson Davis reminded his congress that because “the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable” to southern prosperity. “With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled” by the election to the presidency of an antislavery man like Abraham Lincoln, he declared, “the people of the Southern States were driven . . . to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.” The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." The new slaveholders' republic fashioned itself a constitution that reflected secession's central purpose. In most ways a carbon copy of the U. S. Constitution, the South's version distinguished itself by guaranteeing that no “law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves” would ever be enacted by a Confederate government.

Explain something to me, your issue is with the confederate flag representing slavery, right? Well even after it was abolished, under the stars and stripes, black folks didn't exactly have a good time of it, what is it about a flag representing atrocity AND something else that absolves the atrocious aspect? I mean America was built on slavery, prospered because of it and continued the oppression of black people under its name for centuries afterwards, so why does one get off and the other not?

As I addressed in an earlier post, all flags carry with them the sins and the good deeds of a nation. Undoubtedly the flag of the United States casts a long shadow, under which good and bad acts were committed. The causes, histories, and purposes are varied, complex, and nuanced in both depth and scope when any given national flag is flown. The difference is that the Confederate flag is fairly specific to one cause. It represented the side that fought for slavery. It's symbolic meaning and associations is fairly limited to its long history with the institution of slavery and white supremacy. While many atrocities were committed under the American flag, to define the stars and stripes by those atrocities would be to omit the many instances of progress committed under it.

As Jon Stewart remarked earlier this week, the heritage of only one flag is one that fought against the United States for the preservation of slavery. Stewart added, "they fought for the South against the United States because of slavery. That's the heritage you're defending. I'm sure your soldier ancestors had other redeeming qualities, but this is the thing that they're known for. It’d be like saying you support flying the Nazi flag because you’re proud of their robust anti-smoking agenda. But that wasn’t really their thing.”

[Len Cnut]

Confederate Constitution left the door open for slavery to be abolished if the States so chose. They even freed slaves during the war and kept fighting. On top of the top Generals like Lee were vocal opponents of the practice, not sure how much clearer it can be made that slavery was not the issue. Also there were white slaves and white indentured servants than black slaves and just as many black slave owners in the Deep Southern states of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi as white owners. But of course we no longer want to learn history.

What the left is doing now is extremely infantile. Blaming the south for slavery is a bit like blaming democracy for slavery+denying equal rights to women and children (remember Greek democracy?) It's beyond stupid, and the only goal here is political promotion based on false propaganda. Do not engage liberals in debate, because they do not debate - they lie and defame.

Outlaw whatever you want, I'll remain a rebel in my heart until the day I die defending the freedoms of men to reject Federal governance, big government and the idea that men can't govern themselves.

Stay strong Dixie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-s51B66Sl4

One of President Lincoln's favorite songs, just saying.

Fuck off with your revisionist bullshit. There's no denying that Lincoln, though he fought to end the institution of slavery in the United States, was also a noted bigot and held deeply racist views on current and former slaves. It is also true that many in the North benefited financially from the existence to slavery.

But to suggest that the Civil War was fought for reasons other than Southern states' right to defend slavery is rubbish. As noted in one of the articles I posted earlier:

The Northern population's mounting hostility to slavery during the 1850sand especially to its continuing spread within the U.S.led southern states to leave the Union and initiate the Civil War. The first state to secede, South Carolina, explicitly did so to safeguard "the right of property in slaves" against attempts by "the non-slaveholding States" to judge "the propriety of our domestic institutions" and to deny "the rights of property" in human beings. Slave states bolted from the Union and formed the Confederacy, as South Carolina announced, because of "the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery." The Confederacy's founders agreed with the influential Charleston newspaper, the Mercury, that Lincolns election foretold the extinction of slavery throughout the old Union.

In 1861 Confederate president Jefferson Davis reminded his congress that because the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable to southern prosperity. With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled by the election to the presidency of an antislavery man like Abraham Lincoln, he declared, the people of the Southern States were driven . . . to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced. The Confederacy's vice president, Alexander Stephens, also acknowledged that disputes about "the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" between North and South constituted "the immediate cause" of secession. "Our new Government," he exulted, was founded "upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." The new slaveholders' republic fashioned itself a constitution that reflected secession's central purpose. In most ways a carbon copy of the U. S. Constitution, the South's version distinguished itself by guaranteeing that no law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves would ever be enacted by a Confederate government.

Explain something to me, your issue is with the confederate flag representing slavery, right? Well even after it was abolished, under the stars and stripes, black folks didn't exactly have a good time of it, what is it about a flag representing atrocity AND something else that absolves the atrocious aspect? I mean America was built on slavery, prospered because of it and continued the oppression of black people under its name for centuries afterwards, so why does one get off and the other not?

As I addressed in an earlier post, all flags carry with them the sins and the good deeds of a nation. Undoubtedly the flag of the United States casts a long shadow, under which good and bad acts were committed. The causes, histories, and purposes are varied, complex, and nuanced in both depth and scope when any given national flag is flown. The difference is that the Confederate flag is fairly specific to one cause. It represented the side that fought for slavery. It's symbolic meaning and associations is fairly limited to its long history with the institution of slavery and white supremacy. While many atrocities were committed under the American flag, to define the stars and stripes by those atrocities would be to omit the many instances of progress committed under it.

As Jon Stewart remarked earlier this week, the heritage of only one flag is one that fought against the United States for the preservation of slavery. Stewart added, "they fought for the South against the United States because of slavery. That's the heritage you're defending. I'm sure your soldier ancestors had other redeeming qualities, but this is the thing that they're known for. Itd be like saying you support flying the Nazi flag because youre proud of their robust anti-smoking agenda. But that wasnt really their thing.

So basically you're let off if thats not ALL you represent? Is that how life works?