Post-2000 GN'R Deserve A Better Legacy Than This

[DR DOOM]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

[Graeme]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

You gonnae justify that statement with evidence of why? Axl was on top form, the band was tight, the setlists were ambitious... What was disgraceful?

[DR DOOM]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

You gonnae justify that statement with evidence of why? Axl was on top form, the band was tight, the setlists were ambitious... What was disgraceful?

Axl sounded pretty good for the most part, certainly way better than he did most recently.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that #demented was "tight"?

That guy was/is an absolute disgrace to the GNR name, bad enough you have Pittman with his gay antics but having that wanker prancing about pretending to be Slash (and sounding horrendous in the process)...seriously man, I shouldn't have to explain what is digraceful about it.

[Chuzeville]

An album is supposed to be a snapshot of a certain time in a musician's life anyway. It's not a statue, it's not a building. It's hard rock music. There are many bands with similar style have released truly epic albums or fantastic albums and it did not take them 10 years to create and release.

The Beatles, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Queen, Faith No More. Even Trent didn't take that long. There is no excuse, even if Chinese is one of my favorite hard rock albums.

As an Oasis fan, I often ponder the fact that Oasis (one of my all-time fav) did their whole recording carreer in the period between the release of TSI? and that of CD! That is 7 albums, a bunch of EPs, and consistent touring.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Chuzeville

[Graeme]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

You gonnae justify that statement with evidence of why? Axl was on top form, the band was tight, the setlists were ambitious... What was disgraceful?

Axl sounded pretty good for the most part, certainly way better than he did most recently.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that #demented was "tight"?

That guy was/is an absolute disgrace to the GNR name, bad enough you have Pittman with his gay antics but having that wanker prancing about pretending to be Slash (and sounding horrendous in the process)...seriously man, I shouldn't have to explain what is digraceful about it.

I was never a big fan of the way he conducted himself in general with relation to the band's future output, product placement, self promotion or general rhetoric but I didn't find his presence on stage in the 2010 shows to be something that affected the experience negatively, no.

[DR DOOM]

I was never a big fan of the way he conducted himself in general with relation to the band's future output, product placement, self promotion or general rhetoric but I didn't find his presence on stage in the 2010 shows to be something that affected the experience negatively, no.

00-02: running the GNR name into the ground

06-07: an attempt to salvage it

09-14: bad comedy

[dalsh327]

Reunion tours can be a bit cheesy though, i.e. old farts playing the hits for cash, all their respective lawyers ironing out a contract, etc. Robert Plant sums them up best,

"A (Zeppelin reunion) tour would have been an absolute menagerie of vested interests and the very essence of everything that's shitty about big-time stadium rock. We were surrounded by a circus of people that would have had our souls on the fire. I'm not part of a jukebox!"

- http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/robert-plant-slams-idea-of-zeppelin-tour-im-not-part-of-a-jukebox-20140508

He's a hypocrite because he loads up his solo shows with Led Zeppelin songs, he likes being his own boss and not dealing with Jimmy.

Anyone who saw Led Zeppelin back in the day probably saw Plant/Page in the 90s and could care less about seeing them do Led Zep songs for 2 hours.

Reunion tours tend to be fun, happy, getting it out of your system that you finally got to see them play live. I've never been disappointed by reunion shows, especially if I hadn't seen the band back in the day. You also don't know if it's going to fall apart, so there's an unpredictability to the show.

"Farewell" tours are deceptively named (with some exceptions) and all about cashing in.

[Tom2112]

You know what deserved better? GNR's name.

Axl, alone, made of one the greatest bRands ever play its last shows in Casinos, bowling alleys and russing weddings. Yes, the same dude who first became famous for being very talented and charismatic, the same dude who pretentiously mentioned trilogies, evolution, going where the old band weren't able to. This guy ended his legacy in poker-themed flying piano in Vegas. Using the beloved GNR name throughout. Pathetic.

His lol vision at first was interesting. I love Finck, Bucket and Brain. They are very talented and they were willing to help Axl achieve new things. How did Axl use them? To rewrite AFD and cover 90% of it live. Sad.

Now let's talk a little bit about Rio IV and beyond. Axl was done. In 2011 he was done and made no effort to hide this from the world. I'm sorry if it's result of a disease, or severe depression or something very serious. If it's not, if it's "Axl being Axl" - greatest excuse ever - then I say fuck this guy. He's not a perfectionist, he's not hardworking (lol 3 hours show every day), he's a shadow of himself and he makes a lot of hair metal singers from the 80s look good. Unnacceptable.

The fans deserved better. The name GNR deserved better. But it's over - if you think Axl will make yet another comeback to "take over the world", I'm sorry for you. He won't reunite, he won't release more music. NuGNR's legacy is what it is: A cover band, a solo project with a revolving door of musicians, disaster videos, a very expensive shit album, Team Brazil, etc... And it's all Axl's fault.

I agree with everything from Rio IV paragraph, the rest I'm in and out on.

Wasting time re-recording AFD was pure mental - Agreed! playing lots of material from that album on the re-launch? sensible, that's what the audiences wanted to hear. They didn't have a released album for the first 10 years as a semi touring act. He couldn't push CD when nobody knew it.

As for Guns playing their last shows in Vegas, yeah! I know when you think of GnR, you don't want to think of a lame residency like Celine Dion or Cher... but the business has changed and now more and more bands are doing it. It makes sense on all levels. I'm positive they earn more when it's a residency gig. I think a reunited GnR would even do a residency. The vegas thing may be the only smart business decision guns have made, so I can't back bashing that on business front. They should have had a record for the 2014 residency or at least followed it directly with a new album but they didn't and that's really the only fair criticism (apart from some weak vocal nights for Axl).

I think if Axl was done and Vegas was his farewell Fernando would not have come here. Fernando coming back here means very little, but it's a small / minuscule sign that there are some plans for Gnr in the next years. Also, Richard has said on a number of occasions that he is booked with Guns next year... he's not saying he's in a studio, not the usual line, he's saying he can't do dead daisies as guns will be working again. Let's wait on the whole Guns are dead, until we actually hear something to corroborate that. From what I see Gnr are more alive than ever between reunion talk and everything else. The new bands taking a whipping, but there's nothing new there.

I can see Axl releasing the next album, and going back on the road. The sad truth is he could take any group of musicians, and still be successful just like - Whitesnake, Megadeth, Foreigner or any mega selling band with a huge fan base. We want to see familiar faces, but everyone else couldn't give a shit, yet they will bash them for another line up change.

Finally, while I agree that it would have been amazing for Axl to have released 3 / 4 newGuns albums. If they aren't ready or if he thinks they aren't ready, then I think it needs to be respected. Nobody wants a dud, and if you're going to spend years working on something you really want to make sure that you're happy with what you're releasing. It's incredibly frustrating waiting for new music, and I really want new music, but I don't want it half assed. I want the right artwork, I want the right liner notes, I want the best songs / production etc. and sometimes that takes extraordinary amounts of time to come together. just remember #soon

Depends on your definition of success. Overseas, especially in South America, he can sell out arena's and in some cases a night or two in a Stadium but here in the States the attendance of the recent tours has been shrinking to the point where Guns was close to becoming a Theater or HOB type band.

I don't think Guns are the only band struggling in America, I've even heard James Hetfield recently talking about how it has become very difficult to have a successful tour in the U.S. For whatever reason America has now become one of the most difficult place for bands to play, and I think the proof of this is that the majority of bands now focus their attention on Europe.

[Bono]

but I felt that Guns N' Roses as I knew them deserved better than being replaced and erased or just falling into obscurity.

You could say exactly the same thing about the original line up.

That's why people are excited that old wrongs may be put right.

Sure, the newer versions of the band got a poor end but whose fault is that?

Do they though? I mean, who is to blame for the way they're looked at now?

I'd be tempted to agree with you had the 1998-2004 thing worked out. But it didn't. No album. Buckethead left. I hated his image, but there's no denying his creative influence. So that failed.

I'd even consider it up to 2007. Yes, Buckethead left. But the band was way more solid live. But still no album. And Finck left.

Then it went from bad to worse. Yes, CD came out. But it was 8 years too late. And it pretty much failed. Some of you might like it, but it never did what it was meant to do in 2000-2002. Establish the band as a real musical force. It was too late for that.

And everything post 2008 was, for lack of a better word, absolutely pathetic.

So no. I'm sorry but I really don't think they deserve a better legacy. Not based on result anyway. Revolving-door band, lack of output, image (all over the place, and even worse, Ashba), sound (particularly Axl's voice and Ashba). Shows that were canceled (particularly in in 2001 and 2002). And the countless high-exposure gigs that turned shit. From the VMA's in 2002 to Rio in 2011. Then there's (like you said) the most incompetent bunch of leeches that call themselves a managemen team. Guns n' Roses and Chinese Democracy have actually been used as punchlines to jokes in sitcoms. What does that tell you? It's one big line of consecutive failures.

I'd love to say it wasn't and that they deserved better. But based on result? They really don't.

Post-1998 GnR is the story of what could have been but never was.

As far as I can see, it's become largely Axl's fault. If you read what I'm saying then my argument is that by squandering all that potential, he let his band, and all the people who supported it down. I don't know where you got the idea that I was blaming "the fans" apart from the ones who decided that they were never going to give post-1993 GN'R a chance.

Having said that, I think Azoff's determination to force a reunion after the release of the Chinese Democracy probably played a big role in making the release and the promotion around it as dysfunctional as it ended up being, particularly regarding Axl's participation, promotion and the length of time it took to start the post-album tour. If Azoff had gotten on board with the band he was supposed to be managing instead of trying to destroy it, then I think that whole chapter would probably have gone a lot more smoothly and we might even have had another record by now.

Ron, what was embarrassing about 2010? They completed a hugely successful world tour, the setlists were varied and ambitious (obviously less so as time went on) and the quality of the performances were generally very high, Axl's voice was as good as it's ever sounded, Ron and Frank had really grown into their roles in the band. I don't think DJ's presence alone undoes all of that, though it's obviously all down to personal taste...

The results have ultimately been disappointing, but I'm arguing that the line-up from that era proved that they were capable of a lot more had circumstances permitted it, and that should be recognised. Which is the antithesis of arguments like the one below...

GnR post 2000 deserve the legacy they have. A shit legacy for what became a shit show of an organization. None of this CD era or YES NuGnR is Guns N Roses. Why anyone would want to hold onto something that has basically been worthless is beyond me. The CD era of Guns N Roses is shit. It's accomplished nothing other than tarnish the Guns N Roses name and truthfully anyone wanting to stick with CD era GnR in favour of a reunion because they enjoyed following the band during this time are more in it for nostalgia and sentimental sake than those who want a reunion and REAL GUNS N FUCKIN' ROSES. The reason people want a reunion is because it's better. Plain and simple. End of story!

That's just your opinion, it literally has no more validity than the opinion of anyone else's on here. It does kinda reinforce this point I made though...

"Reunionism for me became synonymous with the people who hung around here when the later line-ups were active, complaining about everything and belittling those who enjoyed the shows and the record as being in some way musically retarded. These are now the same people who would quite happily discard the last 20 years as a joke with no validity whatsoever, in favour of a reunion. "

For the reasons that GNR_1991 outlines pretty superbly below, I did enjoy 2006-2010, there was a lot to enjoy. I took in four great live shows, webcasts, the album, youtube videos and the great buzz in this community. I can express my opinion without condescendingly tearing other people down though.

That's just like your opinion man and it had no more validity than mine or anyne else. I too took in 4 shows between 2006-1010 incuding Hammerstien shows and I can say this era of GnR fucking blows compared to the era that gave us AFD, LIES, UYI 1 & UYI 2 and if you think I'm exagerating you're completely delusional. When I say a reunion is better than what CD era has given us, well that's just a FACT not an opinion so.....................

[Tom2112]

Ballad Of Death and the Pink Panther Theme deserve their dues.

Maybe on Greatest Hits II?

I'm in the minority for sure here but I genuinely feel Ballad of Death was the best piece of music to come from "post Slash GnR", "CD era GnR", "NuGNR" or whatever they were called. I've easily listend to that more than anything on the album, maybe even anything on the album combined.

I enjoyed Ballad of Death a lot myself and actually think it kinda' shows that Dj's might have been able to contribute some worthwhile stuff to a Guns' album.

Nope, no, no no! Ballad of Death was / is a steaming pile. Great song to go to the bathroom at a gig, or get a drink. Shoddy melody, boring chord progression. It sounds like the type of backing track you get free on youtube. Any jackass can string a soppy Am (or whatever key it's in) chord progression together and wail some utterly generic blues lines over the top of it.

Sorry, I know you liked it (each to their own etc, etc), but I just think it's generic and a bit shit. Same goes for that other turd Mi Amor.... YIKES!

If that was what he was bringing to table he wasn't going to be of much use to GnR. Axl writes the ballads, he's already pretty good at doing it by himself.

Yeah because TIL, Catcher and The Blues are epic in comparison...... Fuck those songs are bad.

As I said 'each to their own etc, etc'. I like two of those songs a lot, and think catcher had the chance of being a great song, but it got rammed with so much layers that it was just killed. SOD, TIL are good songs... and some proof of this is going to any GnR concert, watching the crowd sing along, dance etc. a lot of these people are hearing it for the first time, and react similarly to other classic Guns songs. Not your cup of tea and you are not wrong to say that you hate those songs, but not everyone shares your opinion.

I am curious as to what it is that makes them so bad though. I know you're always going on about the TIL lyrics? is it just the lyrics? because there are plenty of great songs that have bad lyrics. A great melody, and a great backing song are enough sometimes.

[AxlsMainMan]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

You gonnae justify that statement with evidence of why? Axl was on top form, the band was tight, the setlists were ambitious... What was disgraceful?

Axl sounded pretty good for the most part, certainly way better than he did most recently.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that #demented was "tight"?

That guy was/is an absolute disgrace to the GNR name, bad enough you have Pittman with his gay antics but having that wanker prancing about pretending to be Slash (and sounding horrendous in the process)...seriously man, I shouldn't have to explain what is digraceful about it.

I was never a big fan of the way he conducted himself in general with relation to the band's future output, product placement, self promotion or general rhetoric but I didn't find his presence on stage in the 2010 shows to be something that affected the experience negatively, no.

I'd say consistently butchering Robin's This I Love solo affected the experience rather negatively.

[BangoSkank]

I was never a big fan of the way he conducted himself in general with relation to the band's future output, product placement, self promotion or general rhetoric but I didn't find his presence on stage in the 2010 shows to be something that affected the experience negatively, no.

00-02: running the GNR name into the ground

06-07: an attempt to salvage it

09-14: bad comedy

Again, '09-'10: ambitious setlists, super long shows, Axl's voice in top shape, the band killing it (as usual)... I really don't see how that's bad comedy.

[trqster]

I was never a big fan of the way he conducted himself in general with relation to the band's future output, product placement, self promotion or general rhetoric but I didn't find his presence on stage in the 2010 shows to be something that affected the experience negatively, no.

00-02: running the GNR name into the ground

06-07: an attempt to salvage it

09-14: bad comedy

Again, '09-'10: ambitious setlists, super long shows, Axl's voice in top shape, the band killing it (as usual)... I really don't see how that's bad comedy.

Yeah, spot on bad comedy right here in '10.....

[Mr. Dude]

I disagree.

Shit. Seriously looking into deleting my previous post soon.

I agree.

[username]

As far as I can see, it's become largely Axl's fault. If you read what I'm saying then my argument is that by squandering all that potential, he let his band, and all the people who supported it down. I don't know where you got the idea that I was blaming "the fans" apart from the ones who decided that they were never going to give post-1993 GN'R a chance.

Having said that, I think Azoff's determination to force a reunion after the release of the Chinese Democracy probably played a big role in making the release and the promotion around it as dysfunctional as it ended up being, particularly regarding Axl's participation, promotion and the length of time it took to start the post-album tour. If Azoff had gotten on board with the band he was supposed to be managing instead of trying to destroy it, then I think that whole chapter would probably have gone a lot more smoothly and we might even have had another record by now.

Ron, what was embarrassing about 2010? They completed a hugely successful world tour, the setlists were varied and ambitious (obviously less so as time went on) and the quality of the performances were generally very high, Axl's voice was as good as it's ever sounded, Ron and Frank had really grown into their roles in the band. I don't think DJ's presence alone undoes all of that, though it's obviously all down to personal taste...

The results have ultimately been disappointing, but I'm arguing that the line-up from that era proved that they were capable of a lot more had circumstances permitted it, and that should be recognised. Which is the antithesis of arguments like the one below...

I have two big issues with 2010.

Number one might feel like a cheapshot, but Ashba. I hate everything about Ashba with a burning passion. His image, his playing, his swag, everything. But the biggest issue about Ashba was the one that was least his fault - that he was yet another replacement in the insane line of band members. One last step down from continuity, from gelling like a band and working as a creative engine. Another attempt to fill the gap of one of the most instrumental members from the period CD was written - Robin Finck. The replacement of the replacement of the real GnR lead guitarist. And then being Ashba just piled on top of that and made it even worse.

Number two is that 2010 feels, to me, like the last year they could have come up with a follow-up to the turd that was CD. Had they dropped a kickass album then, there might have been hope. But really, it was the definitive too late. The end of it.

But like you said, GnR post-1998 is the story of what could have been but wasn't.

[Rovim]

I disagree.

Shit. Seriously looking into deleting my previous post soon.

I agree.

[DR DOOM]

might feel like a cheapshot, but Ashba. I hate everything about Ashba with a burning passion. His image, his playing, his swag, everything. But the biggest issue about Ashba was the one that was least his fault - that he was yet another replacement in the insane line of band members. One last step down from continuity, from gelling like a band and working as a creative engine. Another attempt to fill the gap of one of the most instrumental members from the period CD was written - Robin Finck. The replacement of the replacement of the real GnR lead guitarist. And then being Ashba just piled on top of that and made it even worse.

Right on man.

[Tom-Ass]

The 15 guys that have been in the band since 2000 that know one even knows didn't earn any legacy...

[Tadsy]

Is this thread a gee up? Seriously... it fucking baffles me that someone can come out with this shit.

[Facekicker]

GNR deserved a better legacy than 15 years of NuGNR embarrassment.

[Apollo]

What Axl did wasn't pure "rock n roll" or an F-U to the rock establishment. It was an F-U to his millions of fans.

Mind boggling that people are praising him for sticking to his guns. His stubbornness means that you - his fan - got to enjoy one album of material in the last 20-plus years from your favorite singer.

Axl won because he never caved in?

Sure.

But the fans were the losers.

Would you rather have five albums of material or one album from Axl since he took ownership of the GnR brand?

[Nosaj Thing]

Again, 09-10 tour was a disgrace?

Yes, yes it was.

You gonnae justify that statement with evidence of why? Axl was on top form, the band was tight, the setlists were ambitious... What was disgraceful?

Axl sounded pretty good for the most part, certainly way better than he did most recently.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that #demented was "tight"?

That guy was/is an absolute disgrace to the GNR name, bad enough you have Pittman with his gay antics but having that wanker prancing about pretending to be Slash (and sounding horrendous in the process)...seriously man, I shouldn't have to explain what is digraceful about it.

As "Guns N' Roses" everything Axl has done since real Gn'R broke up has been a fucking disgrace. As "Axl's solo band" I wouldn't say the 2010 tour was a disgrace. When I went to see Axl I knew I wasn't going to see Gn'R, I went to the show for Axl and completely ignored piece of shit Ashba and the other hired hands playing material other people wrote. If you focused on Axl and only him, he delivered.

[wasted]

I just see it as an era of GNR. What the intentions of it were and what it actually became is not clear. It was an era of struggle. I think that can inspire great music. CD represents that era pretty well.

If Axl chooses to get some of the old guys back to do a more back to basics or self titled album I don't think that would take anything away from the CD era.

to me each era is like an exorcism of emotion. So the next one might be the antidote to CD. Or expresses where they ended up finally. CD is the late 90s fall out of the successful era. It kind of had to be like that.

But if they find something new to express to me that's the natural artistic process. If they can move past the isolated frustrated state of CD then that's a good thing. To get perspective on that.

Like Axl said he's been living in hell for the last 20 years. What that actually meant I'm not sure but there are signs of him pulling through it on CD. Rising above it.

But the cd is art and you can move on to something else and it actually can just clarify it.

"One will come to mimic the christ and the deceived will worship this false prophet and that is the day we most fear"

[Nosaj Thing]

Bullshit random shitposting CD. CD 20 years, insane rambling bullshit, bullshit nonsensical reasoning CD era.

[Mr. Dude]

I just see it as an era of GNR. What the intentions of it were and what it actually became is not clear. It was an era of struggle. I think that can inspire great music. CD represents that era pretty well.

If Axl chooses to get some of the old guys back to do a more back to basics or self titled album I don't think that would take anything away from the CD era.

to me each era is like an exorcism of emotion. So the next one might be the antidote to CD. Or expresses where they ended up finally. CD is the late 90s fall out of the successful era. It kind of had to be like that.

But if they find something new to express to me that's the natural artistic process. If they can move past the isolated frustrated state of CD then that's a good thing. To get perspective on that.

Like Axl said he's been living in hell for the last 20 years. What that actually meant I'm not sure but there are signs of him pulling through it on CD. Rising above it.

But the cd is art and you can move on to something else and it actually can just clarify it.

"One will come to mimic the christ and the deceived will worship this false prophet and that is the day we most fear"

I'm with you. I think I can accept a reunion, but part of me wants him to keep it going.