Are you satisfied with the current state of affairs in GNR world?

[Towelie]

Really, you do have to wonder what many of us (myself included) are even doing here, visiting this board year in, year out, following a band who, year in, year out never fail to be predictably unproductive creatively.

Axl himself said when asked about a follow up to CD during the 2008 MyGNR chats “don’t know, don’t care.” Here we are, a decade later and it really doesn’t seem like anything has changed in that regard.

I visit this board a lot less than I used to and post very infrequently these days. But I still see the same old faces here going round in circles with cock and bull theories about unreleased material and laughable talk about a new Guns N Roses album and I can’t help but feel like Axl is making a mug out of you all. Seriously, the man doesn’t give a shit, so why do we? 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Towelie

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Rose could have just pursued the ''Estranged route'' and become the antithesis of grunge, 30 minute prog songs and all. You never know? Guns were in an important position and there would've been a lot of kids who didn't like cardigans. 

And I wish he did that. At least he would have been charting his own course regardless of what was going on around him in the music scene. How many bands were writing stuff like Estranged in the mid 90's? At least it would have set them apart even if their critics were calling them "bloated". For such a headstrong and stubborn guy, he seemed to care tremendously about how his "art" was perceived by the critics and his peers.

54 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I have doubts that what Axl originally wanted to do was as "experimental" and bold as believed.

Sean Beavan said that all the songs on CD but one date from his time. And most of them (seemingly about 2/3 of CD) had already vocals on before he left, which means that Axl had singled those songs out and already intended them for the album. If we look at the songs Axl had done vocals on in '99, they are mainly the "epic" ones, i.e. those that reflect Axl's 70s influences (Street of Dreams, CITR, Madagascar... - even TWAT and Prostitute are basically "classic" rock songs), while songs like Shackler's and Scraped most likely came a little later.

Yeah - it makes you wonder doesn't it? My perception initially was that it started experimental and slowly evolved away from that with each new producer. I remember in one of Axl's interviews prior to playing Rio 3, he mentions how some of the earlier songs the band had worked on had a more industrial sound but they were no longer in consideration to be on the final album. Why? What changed? The "electronic influences" talk comes after Beavan left the project and Moby was in talks to join iirc. 

Then there's the below quotes which make me think that the pre-Beavan album itself was more or less rooted in an "updated" GnR sound rather than a complete departure. But then you have songs like "Oh My God" which sound nothing like GnR. Were songs like OMG intended as one-off  experiments like "my world" on Illusion 2? Or were all these "experimental" songs intended for CD 2? That would sort of line up with Axl's "trilogy" plan with CD3 being the most experimental of the bunch. So ostensibly the "boldest" material is still in the vault awaiting release. I think it would be really fascinating to hear this stuff 20 years after the fact (if it exists). They shouldn't even update it - just put it out there as is. It would serve as a great time capsule from that era and really document the evolution of Chinese Democracy.

"The Robin Finck/Josh Freese/Tommy Stinson/Billy Howerdel/Dizzy Reed version of the album that existed in 1998 was pretty incredible. It still sounded like GNR but there were elements of Zeppelin, Nine Inch Nails and Pink Floyd mixed in." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

"The time I was on [the songs], they were very industrial sounding with the old GN'R elements on top. Axl had some vocal ideas down, but not many." (Dave Dominguez, 2004)

"There's nothing out there right now that has that kind of scope. Axl hasn't spent the last several years struggling to write Use Your Illusion over again. [...] An artist [like Axl], who's had as much success with Guns N' Roses as he has, gets to a point in his career where he can settle into one sound and do it over and over again, usually with diminishing returns. Axl is determined not to do that. There's a sort of ruthlessness about pushing Guns N' Roses to grow, and to find some depth in their music, and to evolve." (James Barber, Rolling Stone, 05/11/00)

"The record just needed a lead vocal and a mix. [...] If Axl had recorded vocals, it would have been an absolutely contemporary record in 1999." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

Edited March 26, 2018 by RONIN

[RussTCB]

16 minutes ago, RONIN said:

"The Robin Finck/Josh Freese/Tommy Stinson/Billy Howerdel/Dizzy Reed version of the album that existed in 1998 was pretty incredible. It still sounded like GNR but there were elements of Zeppelin, Nine Inch Nails and Pink Floyd mixed in." (James Barber, Poptones, 10/16/05)

DAMMIT. I would love for that to see the light of day somehow, someway, someday.

[willl]

2:40 onwards, to put it mildly

[AncientEvil80]

12 hours ago, RONIN said:

Great post. I wouldn't have agreed with you 10 years ago, but hindsight has proven this to be true. You have to put stuff out there instead of getting caught in your head. Axl disappeared up his own ass in the name of "artistry". I imagine he probably was shocked by how his "complex" music like Estranged was lost in the shuffle while simple 3-4 minute grunge songs with just a muddy sounding guitar were all the rage back then. You have this guy who has an incredibly dynamic voice with tons of range like an opera singer - he's already considered one of the best frontmen/singers ever so early in his career - and he's writing 10 minute songs with deeply introspective lyrics, an orchestra, multiple instruments - basically he's already approaching his music like a near-auteur by Illusions after a single (legendary) album. He's at the top of his game. And he's seeing himself passed on the charts by guys like Kurt Cobain (who neither has Axl's vocal range nor is a flashy frontman/entertainer). It must have burned him. Sometimes less is more. And I don't think Axl has ever understood this. 

 

Agreed and those are all fair points but I think the "evolving as an artist" goes out the window when you start chasing trends and trying to be something you're not which imho is what Axl did. He didn't trust his own vision and second guessed himself. It didn't help that during the mid-90's, he was a figure of ridicule with his peers.

If you like industrial music that doesn't mean you should now do that kind of stuff because you think you will be awesome at it. Doing your own thing and evolving naturally is different from "NIN is awesome. I love Trent. I want to do similar stuff like that. I love Nirvana's drumming. I want the drums on my songs to sound like Dave Grohl's drumming. I love electronic music and that's really hot right now - I want Moby to be my producer." That's just derivative hackery. He went beyond just being influenced by his favorite music - he actually tried to hire people from his favorite bands to emulate the sounds of those bands. I think Axl was at the top of his game in the 90's and he could have put out an incredible album then (with or without Slash) but he was too obsessed with chasing fads and it paralyzed him from releasing anything. Oh my God is a perfect example of that. By the time that song came out, it was already late to the party. People were onto the next trend. God knows how many things were started/revised and then scrapped once Axl had moved onto his next muse. 

I think he may have understood this eventually by 2000/2001 when RTB came onboard as a producer. The songs start to evolve back to a more "classic" feel. But in '94, nobody could convince him he was heading in the wrong direction.

Thank you Ronin. Didn't have the time to further elaborate but you did that for me. Perfectly said... that's exactly the point I was trying to convey.

[AncientEvil80]

12 hours ago, RazorGunner said:

 

I disagree strongly with your "derivative hackery" label. Artists are inspired by different things, no shock that it is sometimes other Artists. 

Axl was onto NIN before NIN went mainstream and was popular. 

The point is: sure, be inspired by whatever you want, evolve to different directions, freedom is always good. But keep it under perspective and don't let it corrupt the integrity of the project you are part of. If you cannot manage that, you risk alienating other parties (band members, managers, fans, critics etc) and the implosion of the project. And that is exactly what happened musically to GNR through the years after the Illusions.

[Tadsy]

12 hours ago, RazorGunner said:

 

I disagree strongly with your "derivative hackery" label. Artists are inspired by different things, no shock that it is sometimes other Artists. 

Axl was onto NIN before NIN went mainstream and was popular. 

Some of this is speculative nonsense and assumption stated as fact.  

I think it's fairly obvious that Axl wasted 25 years of his prime. 

I personally think Axl was chasing a ghost by the time the illusions album finished. We know he was so obsessed with burying appetite during the makings of the illusions, that is a fact. 

It's also a fact that this attitude of moving on from the illusions also happened. I don't think it's speculative nonsense at all. 

We know these things happened (axl wanting to take a nin sound, getting moby on board etc) we know for a fact that there was differences in opinion between Axl and Slash as to which way guns should go on the next album in 94. We know Slash took songs to Axl and they were used on snake pit, we've had Axl saying that he was told to just shut up and sing on those tunes. Who's side you choose to take on that argument has kept this board running for the last 25 years. 

The facts are out there, but let's not kid ourselves, the speculative stuff is what drives this board... the trick is, find out who speculates the best with the best backing theories and who joins the dots the best, when you do that, you'll enjoy what other people have to say a lot more. 

Hell, you might even learn something, I know I have! 

 

[RazorGunner]

19 hours ago, Tadsy said:

I think it's fairly obvious that Axl wasted 25 years of his prime. 

I personally think Axl was chasing a ghost by the time the illusions album finished. We know he was so obsessed with burying appetite during the makings of the illusions, that is a fact. 

It's also a fact that this attitude of moving on from the illusions also happened. I don't think it's speculative nonsense at all. 

We know these things happened (axl wanting to take a nin sound, getting moby on board etc) we know for a fact that there was differences in opinion between Axl and Slash as to which way guns should go on the next album in 94. We know Slash took songs to Axl and they were used on snake pit, we've had Axl saying that he was told to just shut up and sing on those tunes. Who's side you choose to take on that argument has kept this board running for the last 25 years. 

The facts are out there, but let's not kid ourselves, the speculative stuff is what drives this board... the trick is, find out who speculates the best with the best backing theories and who joins the dots the best, when you do that, you'll enjoy what other people have to say a lot more. 

Hell, you might even learn something, I know I have! 

 

 

Wasted is a matter of opinion, you cannot state something is a fact unless you can prove it with reliable and credible evidence. 

You are obviously confusing speculation and circumstantial evidence, so to speak-with fact. 

A fact is a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. 

Honestly not interested in who "speculates the best", and doubt seriously I would learn a single solitary thing that would interest me from random assumptions, speculations and fan fiction.

Basically signed up to read the current news, but thanks for your input.  

Edited March 28, 2018 by RazorGunner

[RazorGunner]

19 hours ago, AncientEvil80 said:

The point is: sure, be inspired by whatever you want, evolve to different directions, freedom is always good. But keep it under perspective and don't let it corrupt the integrity of the project you are part of. If you cannot manage that, you risk alienating other parties (band members, managers, fans, critics etc) and the implosion of the project. And that is exactly what happened musically to GNR through the years after the Illusions.

I wouldn't say exactly, CD was plagued with a virtual perfect storm of mishaps and setbacks that would have discouraged and frustrated anyone. The period following the illusions is much too complicated, complex, and tumultuous to be pigeonholed into any one descriptive. 

I don't see the integrity being corrupted at all, I see different people and circumstances attempting to sabotage it, for their own personal gain.

But that's my perspective, others may not see it that way. 

[tbaugerud]

On 26.3.2018 at 7:45 PM, RazorGunner said:

 

You neglected to mention practicing/maintaining skill level, writing/composing  in your narrow definition of what a musician's job is. 

Axl isn't pretending anything and it's his personal twitter so he can post what he likes without your approval. 

Whatever you say, sir. 

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

I think Axl’s instincts were actually pretty “spot on” coming out of the Illusions. He had correctly id’d NIN as one of the “next big things” in popular rock- and he was drawn to Achtung Baby- which if nothing else- perfectly represented a late 80s “stadium anthem”-type band finding a 90s formula for success as a leaner, updated outfit with its pop sensibilities still in-tact. Would have liked to see Guns fight on in that vein (I.e. a darker 90s U2). Certainly more so than as a “Southern Rock”-revival outfit.

Even after all the Slash turmoil- Axl had NINs live guitarist onboard and could have had the band pointed to a 10-12 year run of a “Robin Finck”-era (a la Van Hagar, etc.)- and still probably ended up back w/Slash for the big pay-days today.

You look at James Barber’s (and others) quotes above and it is a real shame things couldn’t have come-together in 98-99. It would be interesting to know about what actually happened then. As I remember it (in college at the time) there was something afoot as you had the Woodstock ‘99 rumors, SPIN article, Loder MTV Interview, Live Era (as a “good bye” to the past), “OMG”, etc. and then...

Next we see Axl re-emerge 2-3 years later- and in a pretty venomous frame of mind (‘01 and ‘02 rants). Always wondered if Slash and Duff got Axl/Guns grounded in ‘99 somehow.

Edited March 28, 2018 by AXL_N_DIZZY

[DeperilsofrockNRollDekednz]

Some very interesting speculation raised about what could have been in the late 90s. I would prefer to see the music that Axl pored over released rather than the meat and potatoes prospect of nostalgia. GNR are my favourite band but the Finck Buckethead combo was IMO a faithful sequel in spirit to Appetite. Not knocking Illusions but I thought a Chinese might save Hard Rock. Instead Queens of the Stone Age did that. U2’s 3 90s lps, are my favourite U2 records. Even Lars Ulrich was rooting for Axl.

[default_]

14 hours ago, RazorGunner said:

Honestly not interested in who "speculates the best", and doubt seriously I would learn a single solitary thing that would interest me from random assumptions, speculations and fan fiction.

Basically signed up to read the current news, but thanks for your input.  

If you arent interested in the discussions and speculations we have on the forum, why the fuck r you trying to force yours into us then?

Some people...

[RONIN]

5 hours ago, AXL_N_DIZZY said:

Next we see Axl re-emerge 2-3 years later- and in a pretty venomous frame of mind (‘01 and ‘02 rants). Always wondered if Slash and Duff got Axl/Guns grounded in ‘99 somehow.

Doubt it because if that was going to happen, it would have happened earlier when they were leaving the band. I think he just couldn't see anything to completion. There was an album ready to go even before Sean Beavan came on board. And then Beavan leaves because the songs they were working on were getting retracked for a later album. In trying to put together his "trilogy" piece by piece, Axl was jumping from one thing to the next without actually finishing anything.

However, I've always had the impression that there was something really personal that went down again between all of those guys in '99 during the period they were putting together "Live Era". Live Era symbolically closes the chapter on the old band so it seems fitting. Some of Duff's interviews from that time are uncharacteristically raw and honest about Axl and the state of the band. In one of those interviews he mentions that he had seen Axl a year prior ('99) and that Axl was very angry with him. This is also around the time Slash starts taking off the kid gloves and criticizing Axl. There was a lot of talk around this time of a reunion at Woodstock and Izzy/Duff mentioning that they were getting 7 figure offers to reunite for shows to kick off the new millenium. Another one of the great untold stories in this band. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by RONIN

[Graeme]

I don't think I've been satisfied with GN'R since the end of 2010.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Graeme

[RazorGunner]

4 hours ago, default_ said:

If you arent interested in the discussions and speculations we have on the forum, why the fuck r you trying to force yours into us then?

Some people...

Not trying to force anything on anyone anywhere, I'm interested in fact not fan fiction.

Simply agree to disagree and move on. 

[Draguns]

After this week, I'm glad that they are not doing interviews with the media  along with not answering questions  about GNR. The Giants owner, Mara, couldn't keep his mouth shut and said one little thing, which turned into a fiasco in the NY media. He said that everyone was tradeable after a 3-13 season. When he said that, the NFL Network, ESPN, and various NY media outlets turned that comment into Odell Beckham being traded to another team. It's turning the Giants into a media circus.

I'm definitely glad that they are keeping quiet even though it can be frustrating for fans.  As someone who works at a business information and media company, I agree with this approach. 

[RONIN]

18 hours ago, RazorGunner said:

I wouldn't say exactly, CD was plagued with a virtual perfect storm of mishaps and setbacks that would have discouraged and frustrated anyone. The period following the illusions is much too complicated, complex, and tumultuous to be pigeonholed into any one descriptive. 

I don't see the integrity being corrupted at all, I see different people and circumstances attempting to sabotage it, for their own personal gain.

But that's my perspective, others may not see it that way. 

Fascinating. For a guy that hates speculation, you do quite a bit yourself. 

 

On 3/26/2018 at 2:14 PM, RazorGunner said:

 

I disagree strongly with your "derivative hackery" label. Artists are inspired by different things, no shock that it is sometimes other Artists. 

Axl was onto NIN before NIN went mainstream and was popular. 

Some of this is speculative nonsense and assumption stated as fact.  

Of course you disagree strongly - anything that is critical of Axl gets you worked up.

Do you realize I said "IMHO" in my post? That means it's my fucking opinion - my perspective of how I see things. Learn to read. You keep assuming things and half-reading people's posts before replying in an aggressive and condescending manner that makes you look like a complete ass. Since you think so highly of yourself you may want to take the time to make sure you know what you're talking about.

And why do you continue to respond to my posts? I thought you made it clear that my speculative nonsense fantasies were so beneath your majesty's preferred reading material? Are you a masochist?

18 hours ago, RazorGunner said:

 

Wasted is a matter of opinion, you cannot state something is a fact unless you can prove it with reliable and credible evidence. 

You are obviously confusing speculation and circumstantial evidence, so to speak-with fact. 

A fact is a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. 

Honestly not interested in who "speculates the best", and doubt seriously I would learn a single solitary thing that would interest me from random assumptions, speculations and fan fiction.

Basically signed up to read the current news, but thanks for your input.  

Thanks for clearing that up for us lowly mortals here. Pedantry is always a sign of superior reasoning. 

 

[RazorGunner]

27 minutes ago, RONIN said:

Fascinating. For a guy that hates speculation, you do quite a bit yourself. 

 

Of course you disagree strongly - anything that is critical of Axl gets you worked up.

Do you realize I said "IMHO" in my post? That means it's my fucking opinion - my perspective of how I see things. Learn to read. You keep assuming things and half-reading people's posts before replying in an aggressive and condescending manner that makes you look like a complete ass. Since you think so highly of yourself you may want to take the time to make sure you know what you're talking about.

And why do you continue to respond to my posts? I thought you made it clear that my speculative nonsense fantasies were so beneath your majesty's preferred reading material? Are you a masochist?

Thanks for clearing that up for us lowly mortals here. Pedantry is always a sign of superior reasoning. 

 

 

 

I can assure you that reading comprehension isn't a difficulty that plagues me, might want to aim your little attacks elsewhere in the future. 

We clearly simply disagree on several issues, why the personal attacks? By devolving into name-calling and negative value judgements you’ve revealed the sheer bankruptcy of your position. 

I'm a GNR fan, I'm pretty knowledgeable and have a positive outlook. 

Lets agree to disagree and move on, there is room for everyones'  opinion here.  

These back and forth pissing matches never end well. Let's not make the moderators' jobs any more difficult. 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by RazorGunner

[RazorGunner]

44 minutes ago, Draguns said:

After this week, I'm glad that they are not doing interviews with the media  along with not answering questions  about GNR. The Giants owner, Mara, couldn't keep his mouth shut and said one little thing, which turned into a fiasco in the NY media. He said that everyone was tradeable after a 3-13 season. When he said that, the NFL Network, ESPN, and various NY media outlets turned that comment into Odell Beckham being traded to another team. It's turning the Giants into a media circus.

I'm definitely glad that they are keeping quiet even though it can be frustrating for fans.  As someone who works at a business information and media company, I agree with this approach. 

Good insight and example here.  

There are definite advantages to keeping your hand close and your circle small- however it sometimes results in rampant rumors, alternative news, and fictional accounts of events.  

[Draguns]

11 minutes ago, RazorGunner said:

Good insight and example here.  

There are definite advantages to keeping your hand close and your circle small- however it sometimes results in rampant rumors, alternative news, and fictional accounts of events.  

I hear ya. It can become fictional either way. The entire story regarding the NY Giants and Odell  proves that. The media turned it into a fictional story. The latest is by a reporter stating that the Giants want two first round draft picks for Odell. Carl Banks, a Giants player from the 80s, made a spoof of that article on Twitter. 

[Chuzeville]

Satisfied ? no. Surprised ? no.

[Order of Nine]

On 3/24/2018 at 10:45 PM, DieselDaisy said:

Then you are resigning yourself to the fact that they are a defunct band, or at best a semi-active band. You are just judging them how one would judge Sinatra or The Beatles today, a historic act. That is a fair enough one to take.

The ''quality over quantity'' argument, a fair one generally, has been stretched ad absurdum by Guns N' Roses. Even recognising Chinese Democracy, that still means 80% of this band's original music was recorded before the final disintegration of the Cold War!

Agreed yeah that's true. But seeing that there is more music to be released at some point I think people will hear in the next few years I'm not to worried.

[patiencepatience]

On 3/25/2018 at 2:04 AM, Tadsy said:

Ummm, what's all that got to do with the question that was asked? 

 

The fans are allowed to have an opinion. Even if it is negative. Let's just say the fact that the question had to be asked shows the situation is more than questionable. The results also indicate from a fan base point of view the band is leaving them short. 

Whether that was obvious or not really isn't the point. Pointing out everything you have above is quite obvious to the majority of us on here. 

Some people still hold out hope that there might be new music, personally I don't. I think it's done. 

And yeah, personally, it pisses me off that Axl will go do an AC/DC album with Angus and leave the gnr fans waiting. What a slap in the face. 

Guess what!

I'm entitled to my own opinion as well, thank you. 

New music is coming. I can feel it  

Axl playing with Angus is epic, I'm stoked and can't wait! 

Not sure how Axl is slapping fans in the face by making an album with his all time favorite band and personal hero? The man is human after all. 

[RussTCB]

I would love to still have the faith about new GNR material that the previous two posters do but that hope finally died out for me some time around the end of 2016.