Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[Lio]

3 minutes ago, soon said:

Belgium - thank you for the chocolate! But I must admit I have no idea whats supposed to be so special about those waffles?! Like, theres not even maple syrup on them 

A "Land Acknowledgement" naming the Land and its People while giving thanks for allowing our presence on their land is increasingly becoming common, whether its institutionally enforced or just by good will. And a blessing by an Elder is a bit less common, but also increasing.

That story, while horrific, is pretty much a daily occurrence. The security guard would just have a built in fear or sense of a duty to enforce against any indigenous person. Like in that case the thinking would be "how could that gutter trash have any business here? But unlike US with Blackness, its not discussed who that prejudiced security measure is a problem.

Indigenous people have been left to die in the waiting area of the Emergency Department at the hospital because it was just assumed they were "just drunk" and not sober but dying . Its also why disappearances dont get investigated - they say "Oh they were probably drunk and fell in the river."

Its difficult to do justice to the issue of addiction among Indigenous people. Because on one hand the intergenerational trauma of colonization, dispossession and especially the State projects that removed children from their families to force them not residential schools (to "take the Indian out of the Child") or the 60's scoop of forced adoptions into white homes, not to mention forced sterilizations give ample cause for one to fall into addiction. But at the same time the racist notion that they all are drunks couldnt be more removed from the reality of it. Drink is no more an issue for indigenous people then it is in the hard rock community. Just in one case its demonized and in the other case its celebrated.

Not a fan of waffles myself. I thought you might thank us for the beer too

What a horrible story. I had no idea about forced adoptions and sterilizations. That sort of thing sounds like nazi stuff, not Canada in the 60s! I can't believe stuff like that was possible only 50-60 years ago, in a western country at that. I mean, people are appalled by nazis and apartheid, for instance (and rightly so), but so many other ghastly things have happened that people at the other siode of the world have never heard of.

[soon]

17 minutes ago, Lio said:

Not a fan of waffles myself. I thought you might thank us for the beer too

What a horrible story. I had no idea about forced adoptions and sterilizations. That sort of thing sounds like nazi stuff, not Canada in the 60s! I can't believe stuff like that was possible only 50-60 years ago, in a western country at that. I mean, people are appalled by nazis and apartheid, for instance (and rightly so), but so many other ghastly things have happened that people at the other siode of the world have never heard of.

HAHA! Ive enjoyed some Abbey Ales for sure . They do the good lords work those Trappists, but dang, 9, 10, 11 % alcohol!?!  

(well said. sadly, forced sterilizations continued until the late 80's. and the last residential school closed in 1993)

Edited August 19, 2018 by soon

[killuridols]

4 hours ago, soon said:

Thats disgusting. Do the foreign millionaires have greater access and control through IMF impositions? Was there IMF provisions to denationalize the lands? That must be heartbreaking to see those fences and signs go up. Especially for a Native.

I dont know if IMF is involved but this is basically foreginer millionaires doing business with local inescrupulous power groups and governments and this is how we've got this far. There's one British multimillionaire, Joe C. Lewis, who has bought so much land equivalent to the size of an European country and he even built an airport that operates illegally and everybody knows but no one does anything about it.

The Argentine people living there organized protests because they are aware of what's going on since the public access to the Hidden Lake is now forbidden because it belongs to this Lewis asshole. That area has always been a zone of conflict for our country because it is wanted and pursued by the biggest powers on earth, due to its richness in natural resources, which we all know will be scarce in a not-so-far future

4 hours ago, soon said:

I really hope that the trend towards understanding native struggle and media coverage continues. I think that anywhere it will be slow and painful, but I can say that here we can almost see some changes from a movement started n 2011-ish called Idle No More. In addition to a Truth and Reconciliation process and investigation into how police fail to handle cases of missing and murdered Indigenous people. 

Unfortunately, with the new horrible government that we have now, the interest in indigenous people problems have dropped in the last 3 years because the major media that supports this government has been portraying the aborigin population as dissidents, terrorists, radicals who just want land for free at the expense of the "good citizens who pay their taxes" and as people who hate the Argentine state and do not recognize the republic.

However, last year the media coverage returned due to the disappearance of a 28 years old Argentine guy who was an activist for the rights of the aborigins in that area, the Mapuche community. He had joined a protest organized by the Mapuches where they were claiming lands and other rights, they blocked a national road and this is considered a crime here, so the government sent the armed forces to dissipate the protest, in an obscene display of State power (they have militar weapons and the natives only have rocks and sticks ).

When the protesters did not want to leave the road, the gendarmerie started to shoot their weapons and the Mapuches had to run away. Santiago Maldonado was the only 'white' guy among the natives and he ran away with them in direction towards the Chubut river to dodge the bullets. When they got near the river, the natives threw themselves in the cold water and swimmed to the other side, but Santiago was scared of the river, he didn't know how to swimm and so he died by drowning.

The case made international news because it is considered a State crime, where one citizen was intimidated by security forces to the point of having to choose between dying at gunpoint or jumping into the river. And this is the only reason why the whole Mapuche cause was known to the majority of the unknowing Argentines, because one white person died. When natives die at the hands of armed forces or the police, no one gives a shit here.

Check these two short videos from the international press taking notice of this violation of human rights:

 

 

4 hours ago, soon said:

That video is hilarious! Uh-oh, now my brain is trying to fit you into that stereotype! Are you ever draped in a flag as you type?  j/k

LOL, I'm only drapped in a flag when I post at the FOOTBALL thread

 

[Graeme]

17 hours ago, soon said:

For the most part we only have what the settlers brought. So Curling is our own now. And we're the best at it 

Bannock is also Scottish but now belongs in full to the First Nations of this land. Similar to what happened to y'all with dreadlocks too, I guess. Haggis gets a bad rap so no one will steal that at least, even though its fucking delicious.

Theres only mountains where the mountains are. But yeah, its beautiful here.

I grew up round the corner from an Olympic gold medallist Curling skip, I think she might have a thing or two to say about that .

[soon]

8 hours ago, Graeme said:

I grew up round the corner from an Olympic gold medallist Curling skip, I think she might have a thing or two to say about that .

An especially rare treat for you since you've only taken 2 golds in 13 games that included Curling.  Canada has taken 6 golds. 

Spoiler

...Plus 3 silvers to your 1. And 2 bronze to your 1  

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by soon

[DieselDaisy]

Graeme is so nationalistic he has found himself in an argument with a Canadian (of all people) over international sport bragging rights. 

[Len Cnut]

What the fuck is curling?  Its some sort of Olympic thing innit, like throwing the hammer or shotput or whatever.  

46 minutes ago, soon said:

An especially rare treat for you since you've only taken 2 golds in 13 games that included Curling.  Canada has taken 6 golds. 

  Reveal hidden contents

...Plus 3 silvers to your 1. And 2 bronze to your 1  

 

Yeah but can Canadians do it whilst pissed?

[DieselDaisy]

Curling is that sport where it looks like you are doing the hoovering. 

[soon]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

What the fuck is curling?  Its some sort of Olympic thing innit, like throwing the hammer or shotput or whatever.  

 

10 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Yeah but can Canadians do it whilst pissed?

While not all bars are curling clubs, all curling clubs are bars. In a small town the curling club might be the main watering hole. So yeah, the common curling phrase "Hurry hard!" sounds more like echoing walruses or the Sand People of Tatooine by the end of an evening 

[Len Cnut]

Y’know what, I never seen that sport before, learn something new everyday.  Heard the name but never seen it, assumed for some reason that it had something to do with lobbing things.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Len Cnut

[killuridols]

It looks like they are mopping the floor 

[Graeme]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

It looks like they are mopping the floor 

They're melting the top part of the ice to make it easier for the polished stone to slide further over it.

[-W.A.R-]

I love the ads in the ice.

No better time to persuade me to buy cashmere toilet paper than when im watching shuffleboard on ice.

[soon]

20 hours ago, killuridols said:

I dont know if IMF is involved but this is basically foreginer millionaires doing business with local inescrupulous power groups and governments and this is how we've got this far. There's one British multimillionaire, Joe C. Lewis, who has bought so much land equivalent to the size of an European country and he even built an airport that operates illegally and everybody knows but no one does anything about it.

The Argentine people living there organized protests because they are aware of what's going on since the public access to the Hidden Lake is now forbidden because it belongs to this Lewis asshole. That area has always been a zone of conflict for our country because it is wanted and pursued by the biggest powers on earth, due to its richness in natural resources, which we all know will be scarce in a not-so-far future

First, thank you for this info and the videos. What a horrible situation. The police are heavy handed even with average white citizens on this matter which is really telling about the climate there. Its so visibly dystopian with the lakes being laid claim to. Approximately 80% of international mineral extraction firms have listing on the Toronto Exchange (in Canada) so we have mobilized a some what ongoing network of resistance here. Barrick Gold holds shareholder meetings, including media barren Conrad Black, in a gold plated sky scrapper. Their hands are filthy with blood. You used the word unscrupulous for the local business people there and I think thats the perfect word for the multinationals and the govts who turn a blind eye to the despicable violence the extraction produces. 

Im really sorry to hear this. 

20 hours ago, killuridols said:

Unfortunately, with the new horrible government that we have now, the interest in indigenous people problems have dropped in the last 3 years because the major media that supports this government has been portraying the aborigin population as dissidents, terrorists, radicals who just want land for free at the expense of the "good citizens who pay their taxes" and as people who hate the Argentine state and do not recognize the republic.

However, last year the media coverage returned due to the disappearance of a 28 years old Argentine guy who was an activist for the rights of the aborigins in that area, the Mapuche community. He had joined a protest organized by the Mapuches where they were claiming lands and other rights, they blocked a national road and this is considered a crime here, so the government sent the armed forces to dissipate the protest, in an obscene display of State power (they have militar weapons and the natives only have rocks and sticks ).

When the protesters did not want to leave the road, the gendarmerie started to shoot their weapons and the Mapuches had to run away. Santiago Maldonado was the only 'white' guy among the natives and he ran away with them in direction towards the Chubut river to dodge the bullets. When they got near the river, the natives threw themselves in the cold water and swimmed to the other side, but Santiago was scared of the river, he didn't know how to swimm and so he died by drowning.

The case made international news because it is considered a State crime, where one citizen was intimidated by security forces to the point of having to choose between dying at gunpoint or jumping into the river. And this is the only reason why the whole Mapuche cause was known to the majority of the unknowing Argentines, because one white person died. When natives die at the hands of armed forces or the police, no one gives a shit here.

Its all the more vulgar when govts and media frame Indigenous people as thugs for wanting land... I mean its because Settlers wanted the very same thing that starts these conflicts. Its just so shamelessly backwards.

That sounds like "the Rachel Corrie effect." Where a white activist has a similar fate to an oppressed group and all of a sudden everyone cares. She, a US citizen, was bulldozed by Israeli forces while peacefully protesting home demolitions. Santiago Maldonado (Presente!) seems similar. Do the Mapuche organizers broadly embrace the publicity despite the bad taste it leaves? The popular resistance is impressive to behold!

I saw two Mapuche activists on a speaking tour here in Ontario a number of years ago. Also a few little workshops they lead. They were from within the Chilean boarder. Both very powerful and articulate women.

The militarized police in you Country makes me fucking sick. You are a strong people(s).

Edited August 20, 2018 by soon

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, soon said:

First, thank you for this info and the videos. What a horrible situation. The police are heavy handed even with average white citizens on this matter which is really telling about the climate there. Its so visibly dystopian with the lakes being laid claim to. Approximately 80% of international mineral extraction firms have listing on the Toronto Exchange (in Canada) so we have mobilized a some what ongoing network of resistance here. Barrick Gold holds shareholder meetings, including media barren Conrad Black, in a gold plated sky scrapper. Their hands are filthy with blood. You used the word unscrupulous for the local business people there and I think thats the perfect word for the multinationals and the govts who turn a blind eye to the despicable violence the extraction produces. 

Im really sorry to hear this. 

Oh, no, thanks to you for your interest in these topics. Most people do not care for anyone else but themselves or their posse

Ohmygod, those Barrick Golds people are here too!! and the Monsanto company, they were killing us with their poison

We have a local rock band that wrote a great song about all that pest and how the governments play an essential part when it comes to destroying our own national resources.

1 hour ago, soon said:

Do the Mapuche organizers broadly embrace the publicity despite the bad taste it leaves? The popular resistance is impressive to behold!

They took advantage while it lasted but the govt later tried to make it look like it was them who killed Santiago, because the official media said "how come all of them crossed the river but he didn't? why did they abandon him at the river?" and that led to other suspicions and ridicule of the community. I remember some TV reports where the Mapuches were scrutinized because of their shoes "how come an aborigin is wearing Nike?" or because one of them had a cellphone "we thought they communicated through smoke signals" or "how come they drive a truck?". It was so pathetic to watch all that, poor people

2 hours ago, soon said:

I saw two Mapuche activists on a speaking tour here in Ontario a number of years ago. Also a few little workshops they lead. They were from within the Chilean boarder. Both very powerful and articulate women.

Yes, there are Mapuches in Argentina and Chile and the chilean ones are even more radical. The govt has a very rough relationship with them. Their interactions are mostly violent.

2 hours ago, soon said:

The militarized police in you Country makes me fucking sick. You are a strong people(s).

I know...

Unfortunately, most countries in Latinamerica have that "trait" of militarized police in the streets, anywhere you go.... We are convoluted societies and in Argentina, we are highly involved in politics. The social movements are very strong and it is only through protest that we gain new rights or let the govt known about our discomfort. Sometimes it makes you tired of living like this for so long.

I dont trust the police, I have one patrol in my neighborhood and I start shaking everytime I see them.... they ride their police car very slowly and when they come close to you they give you that look that makes you feel guilty even for standing up at the bus stop..... sucks...

 

[soon]

On August 20, 2018 at 3:05 PM, killuridols said:

Unfortunately, most countries in Latinamerica have that "trait" of militarized police in the streets, anywhere you go.... We are convoluted societies and in Argentina, we are highly involved in politics. The social movements are very strong and it is only through protest that we gain new rights or let the govt known about our discomfort. Sometimes it makes you tired of living like this for so long.

I dont trust the police, I have one patrol in my neighborhood and I start shaking everytime I see them.... they ride their police car very slowly and when they come close to you they give you that look that makes you feel guilty even for standing up at the bus stop..... sucks...

 

I just wanted to sit with this for a beat. Sorry for slow reply.

Im moved to hear you describe your experience when the cops roll by. Thats horrible. We have some messed up stuff here too and Ive been beaten by the 'blue meanies' a number of times, but the picture you paint is so outside of my day to day experience. I can relate in my own way about the drudgery of struggle, but again from my comparatively privileged surroundings. Theres a beauty in struggle too. But it doesnt counter the cause of the struggle. 

I hope we can learn how to support you all and your movements better.

On August 20, 2018 at 3:05 PM, killuridols said:

They took advantage while it lasted but the govt later tried to make it look like it was them who killed Santiago, because the official media said "how come all of them crossed the river but he didn't? why did they abandon him at the river?" and that led to other suspicions and ridicule of the community. I remember some TV reports where the Mapuches were scrutinized because of their shoes "how come an aborigin is wearing Nike?" or because one of them had a cellphone "we thought they communicated through smoke signals" or "how come they drive a truck?". It was so pathetic to watch all that, poor people

Sounds about par for the course. Media narratives on resistance are so fucking tired, but the people lap it up. Especially when Indigeneity is the issue. Its so frustrating, like "How come the aboriginal is wearing Nike?" Because you fucking imposed your bullshit consumer monoculture on them. Or because for the sake of the environment they shop second hand and made use of the Nikes you tossed. How can it possibly cast them in a poor light?! Theres this guy in Canada that says people cant criticize capitalism if they use technology. Said as if one cant exist in the world if they have citimicsims, as if humans would produce no tech in a different economy, and in ignorance of guerrilla tactics. And people are making him an intellectual hero 

On August 20, 2018 at 3:05 PM, killuridols said:

Ohmygod, those Barrick Golds people are here too!! and the Monsanto company, they were killing us with their poison

We have a local rock band that wrote a great song about all that pest and how the governments play an essential part when it comes to destroying our own national resources.

I cannot fathom what Monsanto is getting away with. They have a major centre on a Uni here that is popular for agriculture in a town known for producing radicals and no ones done shit. And theres this lie that NA lefties are getting more severe. Their building would be rubble in any other era. Id apologize for our collective inaction here but Im not with those vain, student, identity-politics nit wits. They go to the anti monsanto rallies to get the selfies for their Instagram.

I knew Barrick was there, should have worded the more clearly.

Is there somewhere I can hear that song?

Edited August 22, 2018 by soon

[SoulMonster]

On ‎20‎.‎08‎.‎2018 at 9:05 PM, killuridols said:

and the Monsanto company, they were killing us with their poison

What poison would that be?

[DieselDaisy]

 

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, soon said:

Im moved to hear you describe your experience when the cops roll by. Thats horrible. We have some messed up stuff here too and Ive been beaten by the 'blue meanies' a number of times, but the picture you paint is so outside of my day to day experience. I can relate in my own way about the drudgery of struggle, but again from my comparatively privileged surroundings. Theres a beauty in struggle too. But it doesnt counter the cause of the struggle. 

Yeah, I am no victim though. I live relatively well here, in a good neighborhood (although not entirely free of high criminality) but I am more priviledged than so many others, who live in the periphery, in poverty and just because of that they are segregated by the society, persecuted by the police and deprived of their rights.

The cases of "trigger-happy" in Argentina are a thing, really bad thing, so many young kids have died at the hands of policemen.....

3 hours ago, soon said:

Its so frustrating, like "How come the aboriginal is wearing Nike?" Because you fucking imposed your bullshit consumer monoculture on them. Or because for the sake of the environment they shop second hand and made use of the Nikes you tossed. How can it possibly cast them in a poor light?! Theres this guy in Canada that says people cant criticize capitalism if they use technology. Said as if one cant exist in the world if they have citimicsims, as if humans would produce no tech in a different economy, and in ignorance of guerrilla tactics. And people are making him an intellectual hero 

Hah, you nailed it with your second guess! More like having zero money is why they get what they can from people who want to help them!
I know I give all of my clothes I dont wear anymore to someone who will need them, like now I learned about a girl turning 15 years old and she will be having her "Quinces" party, she's from a rural area, so I sent her a nice white bolero to wear over her dress. I wore it only twice and I will not wear it again, so what's the use of keeping it in my closet, collecting dust? Better go to a young girl and make her happy!

LOL does that Canadian intellectual hero have family in Argentina? Because here we have a bunch of people saying "you're a Marxist with iPhone" or "you're a hippie with OSDE" (OSDE is a health insurance company)...... but we've got the right answer for that
"Yes, I'm a leftie with iPhone and you... you are a fascist with salary bonus + paid vacations + leave of absence + pension. So please quit your labor rights, because they were all won by the left!"

4 hours ago, soon said:

I cannot fathom what Monsanto is getting away with. They have a major centre on a Uni here that is popular for agriculture in a town known for producing radicals and no ones done shit. And theres this lie that NA lefties are getting more severe. Their building would be rubble in any other era. Id apologize for our collective inaction here but Im not with those vain, student, identity-politics nit wits. They go to the anti monsanto rallies to get the selfies for their Instagram.

I knew Barrick was there, should have worded the more clearly.

Here some students join the protest but it is the people from the affected areas the ones who have screamed against Monsanto and there was one small neighborhood that fought so hard, filed a legal case against them and partially won it because they had to refrain from starting to work!
As you said before, we have strong people here and strong convictions. They will not pass!!

Here you can check these articles on how bad Monsanto has affected our place:
- Argentina: The Country That Monsanto Poisoned
- A Town Demands Protection from Pesticides
- GMO Kids? Argentina Moms Confront Monsanto and Philip Morris Over Greed and Pesticides
- Argentina’s Soybeans Help Feed the World But Might Be Making Locals Sick

 

4 hours ago, soon said:

Is there somewhere I can hear that song?

haha, yes, on YouTube but the lyrics are in Spanish, you know?
I'll translate it for you though...

I'm giving up to the fact of this subject eventually getting old
Not like Cambalache * which is still trendy
Like a couple of droplets for the blind eyes
Like an antidote for the bad habits

How do you detect obscene governments?

They are the ones ratifying mining laws
They are the ones wearing Barrick Gold ** tattoos in their skin
They are the ones giving away to foreign companies
The whole Andes except their Grand Hotel

I call them the obscene governments

They cut the budget assigned for the teachers
They name a former repressor in charge of a Ministry
They manage the city as if it was a Football team
They confuse education with repression

I call them the obscene governments

And some of them are very good dancers
In Dancing With The Stars they know how to shine
And if they are tired of never setting foot in the Congress
An ephedrine battery will charge them again

I call them the obscene governments

They are not precisely trafficking ideas
They think they are smarter for having a big head
I rather have more than two fingers of forehead
Makes me aware of the big fish behind the curtain

This is the worst of the obscene governments
Without a doubt the worst of the obscene governments

Notes:
* 'Cambalache' is the title of a popular tango song written in 1934, which depicts in dialectic verses the corruption of the 20th century and unfortunately, things never got much better, so that's why he says the topics of that tango song are more up-to-date than the lyrics of this rock song.

** In this live version, he modifies the lyrics and adds Monsanto after singing Barrick Gold.

 

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

What poison would that be?

- Argentina: The Country That Monsanto Poisoned
- A Town Demands Protection from Pesticides
- GMO Kids? Argentina Moms Confront Monsanto and Philip Morris Over Greed and Pesticides
- Argentina’s Soybeans Help Feed the World But Might Be Making Locals Sick

 

[SoulMonster]

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

- Argentina: The Country That Monsanto Poisoned
- A Town Demands Protection from Pesticides
- GMO Kids? Argentina Moms Confront Monsanto and Philip Morris Over Greed and Pesticides
- Argentina’s Soybeans Help Feed the World But Might Be Making Locals Sick

 

I skimmed the first article but I didn't really understand how Monsanto is responsible for the overuse of pesticides in by farmers in Argentina? 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

She is correct that Monsanto is an evil corporation. No joke.

I think a large part (NOT ALL!) of the criticism against Monsanto comes from people on the far left side of the political spectrum who are opposed to globalization, to disruption of traditional ways of farming, to USA, and to GMO. Monsanto is singled out because they are so good at what they do and are the largest agribiotech company in the world. 

But of course, if it is proven that Monsanto has been hiding data that implies that glyphosate (the active ingredient in their most popular fertilizer) is more dangerous than formerly believed, and it has resulted in increased cancer prevalence among farmers, then that is a serious crime. But as far as I understand that hasn't been proven yet.

 

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

It's been a long time since I looked into Monsanto and this kind of thing but I reached the conclusion that they are scumbags. I'm not on the far left or anything like that, I don't attach myself to any ideology for the sake of attaching myself to an ideology because I think that's severely dumb. Whatever side of the fence you choose to be on; Monsanto being very underhanded and fucking with people's livelihoods and taking undue risk with people's well-being should make you think they're cunts

Sure, I am not just so sure this has been proven yet. The little I know of this, it seems like most of the criticism really is against the system (legalization of GMO, globalization, disruption of traditional agriculture, etc) and not really against Monsanto who operates within the legal frameworks and are just very good at it (unless, of course, they have really lied about the danger of glyphosate). Oh well. 

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Don't mistake legality as morality. I know plenty of law abiding citizens who are scum of the Earth.

P.S. Globalization is an abysmal idea. Consolidation of power is consolidation of corruption. Imagine what an oppressive bureaucratic clusterfuck that would be.

And that ties well into what I said about a lot of the criticism against Monsanto really is system criticism and they being singled out because they are leaders in their segment.

Anyway, I have to read myself up on this, I don't know enough. I am not at all saying they aren't bad guys, just that any criticism against they for unlawful things they have doen tends to get drown out by left-wing people who really are objecting to larger structural aspects of society so it is basically hard for me to find out and make some conclusions.

[killuridols]

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I skimmed the first article but I didn't really understand how Monsanto is responsible for the overuse of pesticides in by farmers in Argentina? 

 

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I think a large part (NOT ALL!) of the criticism against Monsanto comes from people on the far left side of the political spectrum who are opposed to globalization, to disruption of traditional ways of farming, to USA, and to GMO. Monsanto is singled out because they are so good at what they do and are the largest agribiotech company in the world.

If you had not skimmed the article and had read the others, you wouldn't be saying this nonsense.

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Anyway, I have to read myself up on this, I don't know enough. I am not at all saying they aren't bad guys, just that any criticism against they for unlawful things they have doen tends to get drown out by left-wing people who really are objecting to larger structural aspects of society so it is basically hard for me to find out and make some conclusions.

If you had read the articles you would know it is not leftists, it is the same poor people of the affected areas who are screaming against Monsanto and asking for help. There are scientists and doctors involved.

How do you explain 20 people with leukemia in a given neighborhood?

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

I should probably read up on it regardless but really that's only necessary if I want to get into the deeper more academic specifics such as law. I don't. I'm too lazy lol. The criticisms I'm making are pretty undeniable, moralistic and fundamental/obvious ones. I'm not representing anything.

The laws and other details are very well explained in the articles I posted, you could read them to get an idea of what's going on.

Anyway, I think Monsanto was recently bought by Bayer.