Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

I should probably read up on it regardless but really that's only necessary if I want to get into the deeper more academic specifics such as law. I don't. I'm too lazy lol. The criticisms I'm making are pretty undeniable, moralistic and fundamental/obvious ones. I'm not representing anything.

I meant read up on it to really understand that they really ARE being immoral. Doing global sales of GMO and fertilizers isn't bad in itself, in my opinion.

[SoulMonster]

10 minutes ago, killuridols said:

 

If you had not skimmed the article and had read the others, you wouldn't be saying this nonsense.

If you had read the articles you would know it is not leftists, it is the same poor people of the affected areas who are screaming against Monsanto and asking for help. There are scientists and doctors involved.

How do you explain 20 people with leukemia in a given neighborhood?

The laws and other details are very well explained in the articles I posted, you could read them to get an idea of what's going on.

Anyway, I think Monsanto was recently bought by Bayer.

Yes, Monsanto was acquired by Bayer. Not sure how that affects anything, though.

I thought you could explain what is wrong without me having to read a bunch of articles that would likely just have to make me read a bunch of other articles that aren't cherry-picked. This is a discussion forum, after all, not a share-articles-that-support-my-view forum. 

How do I explain 20 people with leukemia in a given neighbourhood? Depends upon the size of the neighbourhood, doesn't it? Anyway, the question isn't really on whether Monsanto has sold something that is carcinogenic, but whether they KNEW it was carcinogenic and hid those data, and whether it has been used according according to instructions. 

[killuridols]

"There is a direct relation between spraying pesticide on soy and corn fields and the diseases observed among the communities living around the fields," pediatrics specialist Medardo Avila-Vazquez told VICE News in the city.

The World Health Organization sets the limit of glyphosate content at 20 miligrams per kilogram in food products. According to Avila-Vazquez, "soy shipments from Argentina contain 100 miligrams per kilogram of glyphosate in soybean," a claim backed by Testbiotech, a German research group that opposes GMOs. That's "a very big quantity of poison in food," Avila-Vazquez said.

The types of diseases found among "sprayed people" have dramatically changed in the provinces of Cordoba, Santa Fe, and Chaco since Argentina started using pesticides on cultivated crops in 1996, Avila-Vazquez said.

Doctors have noticed more cancers, miscarriages, and birth defects since then, reports show. In the northeastern Chaco province, one of the poorest regions in the country, birth defects quadrupled in the 2000s."

https://news.vice.com/article/argentinas-soybeans-help-feed-the-world-but-might-be-making-locals-sick

 

 

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, Monsanto was acquired by Bayer. Not sure how that affects anything, though.

I thought you could explain what is wrong without me having to read a bunch of articles that would likely just have to make me read a bunch of other articles that aren't cherry-picked. This is a discussion forum, after all, not a share-articles-that-support-my-view forum. 

How do I explain 20 people with leukemia in a given neighbourhood? Depends upon the size of the neighbourhood, doesn't it? Anyway, the question isn't really on whether Monsanto has sold something that is carcinogenic, but whether they KNEW it was carcinogenic and hid those data, and whether it has been used according according to instructions. 

All of those questions are answered in the articles and no, they are not cherry-picked to fit my views. They are pretty well balanced.

[wasted]

Basically though without nuclear power we’d all be living in slums. Our job is really to get our share of the energy before we die, not save future gens from some semi fictional danger. Generically modified carrots might give me cancer but today I enjoyed a carrot enhanced no 2.

[Len Cnut]

Christ Almighty, thats fuckin' disgusting.  Is it like...I mean the sprayed stuff, is it the stuff sold to like...everybody?  Or just like, working class people?  Surely the fuckin' rich folks can't be havin' that shit.

[SoulMonster]

10 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Mate, you are waaay oversimplifying the issue to the point of actually defending them. You do need to read up on it.

Not defending them. Just pointing out that a lot of the criticism seems to be criticism against system and not really against Monsanto.

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

"There is a direct relation between spraying pesticide on soy and corn fields and the diseases observed among the communities living around the fields," pediatrics specialist Medardo Avila-Vazquez told VICE News in the city.

The World Health Organization sets the limit of glyphosate content at 20 miligrams per kilogram in food products. According to Avila-Vazquez, "soy shipments from Argentina contain 100 miligrams per kilogram of glyphosate in soybean," a claim backed by Testbiotech, a German research group that opposes GMOs. That's "a very big quantity of poison in food," Avila-Vazquez said.

The types of diseases found among "sprayed people" have dramatically changed in the provinces of Cordoba, Santa Fe, and Chaco since Argentina started using pesticides on cultivated crops in 1996, Avila-Vazquez said.

Doctors have noticed more cancers, miscarriages, and birth defects since then, reports show. In the northeastern Chaco province, one of the poorest regions in the country, birth defects quadrupled in the 2000s."

https://news.vice.com/article/argentinas-soybeans-help-feed-the-world-but-might-be-making-locals-sick

Okay, let's say that this is correct, and that the pesticide-use in this region HAS cause more disease. How exactly is that Monsanto's fault? Was the pesticides used according to instructions? Did Monsanto hide deleterious effects. THOSE are the question that needs to be answered ti put the blame on Monsanto. Again, not saying they aren't to blame, just that all the criticism I have read seems to skip this and just directly blame the big, multinational company that produce GMO.

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Not defending them. Just pointing out that a lot of the criticism seems to be criticism against system and not really against Monsanto.

It's not against Monsanto just becuase! Don't you get moved by the pictures of the people with malformations and tumors? Something's going on here.... Anyone would suspect and I really doubt those people would oppose to a company offering jobs where is needed if it wasn't that their shit is provoking health problems.

It is not normal to have so many cases of malformation in rural/poor areas. Obviously, some kind of contamination is happening and oh surprise, the soybean fields are always near the people.

----

Quote

 

"It's hard because everybody knows that there is a health problem in Ituzaingó, but it is difficult for [the government] to accept this problem," said Norma Herrera, another cofounder of the Mothers of Ituzaingó Anexo group.

Herrera has a 16-year-old daughter who was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of three. She said doctors told her that agrochemicals sprayed close to her house caused her daughter's disease.

Argentina's government has consistently disregarded claims of sicknesses due to agrochemicals spraying, and still heavily supports transgenic agriculture. Farming is the motor of the nation's economy. More than 70 percent of businesses in the country are linked to agriculture, which includes feed and fertilizer companies, said Dellacha, the director of the Argentine Forum on Biotechnology.

"I am not aware of any negative aspects," Molina, the Cordoba agriculture secretary, said.

With a 35 percent export tax, the agricultural sector brought $7.5 billion in revenue for the Argentine government in 2013."

 

😏

11 minutes ago, wasted said:

Basically though without nuclear power we’d all be living in slums. Our job is really to get our share of the energy before we die, not save future gens from some semi fictional danger. Generically modified carrots might give me cancer but today I enjoyed a carrot enhanced no 2.

I've had people from foreign countries asking me why the apples and peaches I had bought at the supermarket looked so shiny and big, they looked "unreal", that's what they told me.

The size of some fruits and vegetables here is pretty suspicious and I've been noticing for quite some time.

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

It's not against Monsanto just becuase! Don't you get moved by the pictures of the people with malformations and tumors? Something's going on here.... Anyone would suspect and I really doubt those people would oppose to a company offering jobs where is needed if it wasn't that their shit is provoking health problems.

It is not normal to have so many cases of malformation in rural/poor areas. Obviously, some kind of contamination is happening and oh surprise, the soybean fields are always near the people.

----

😏

I've had people from foreign countries asking me why the apples and peaches I had bought at the supermarket looked so shiny and big, they looked "unreal", that's what they told me.

The size of some fruits and vegetables here is pretty suspicious and I've been noticing for quite some time.

Basically carrots are never as orange or big as the ones I see. Profit. 

Here though they just paint apples red and inject watermelons with sugar. Which has no upsides, but watermelons do taste sweeter. 

But everything else is a tradeoff. Well that’s the “logic”. 200,000 get food, 2-3 get born with two heads. 

It’s like that movie Changing Lanes, I do more good than harm. 

 

[killuridols]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Okay, let's say that this is correct, and that the pesticide-use in this region HAS cause more disease. How exactly is that Monsanto's fault? Was the pesticides used according to instructions? Did Monsanto hide deleterious effects. THOSE are the question that needs to be answered ti put the blame on Monsanto. Again, not saying they aren't to blame, just that all the criticism I have read seems to skip this and just directly blame the big, multinational company that produce GMO.

The people employed to do this are the poorest and less instructed in the work chain. If the pesticides were applied in the wrong way, that's not this people faults.

How to explain to you that they are barely schooled, others don't know how to read, I doubt they could even understand the name of 'Round Up'....

Monsanto and the employers are to blame because they should have instructed these people in how to use the pesticides and provide them with the proper apparel and protection to do it.

Or do you expect that people who earn half a dollar per day also provide themselves with the equipment?

[wasted]

2 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Don't mistake legality as morality. I know plenty of law abiding citizens who are scum of the Earth.

P.S. Globalization is an abysmal idea. Consolidation of power is consolidation of corruption. Imagine what an oppressive bureaucratic clusterfuck that would be.

We don’t have to imagine?

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

Here though they just paint apples red and inject watermelons with sugar. Which has no upsides, but watermelons do taste sweeter. 

But everything else is a tradeoff. Well that’s the “logic”. 200,000 get food, 2-3 get born with two heads. 

You all should be worried. This is not an Argentinian problem, we are feeding the fucking world and we all will eventually grow a second head or a third leg if we don't give a fuck about this shit.

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

You all should be worried. This is not an Argentinian problem, we are feeding the fucking world and we all will eventually grow a second head or a third leg if we don't give a fuck about this shit.

That can be said about free medical care and education. Like I said nukes are why we can post here. 

So I suppose we should care but we just haven’t. So far, so good, so what? 

We can worry but Trump might nuke us, so let’s party like it 1999. 

[wasted]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

And it's probably only going to get worse.

Clock is running down.

Start stocking piling booze, salt and cheese. 

[SoulMonster]

29 minutes ago, killuridols said:

The people employed to do this are the poorest and less instructed in the work chain. If the pesticides were applied in the wrong way, that's not this people faults.

How to explain to you that they are barely schooled, others don't know how to read, I doubt they could even understand the name of 'Round Up'....

Monsanto and the employers are to blame because they should have instructed these people in how to use the pesticides and provide them with the proper apparel and protection to do it.

Or do you expect that people who earn half a dollar per day also provide themselves with the equipment?

And they didn't? Is it really Monsanto's fault if someone has been misusing their product? Is it BMWs fault when someone crashes their car? Not necessarily. What I haven't seen is evidence that Monsanto has misled or lied about the inherent, known dangers of glyphosat or its usage. But not saying their didn't, just that such genuine criticism tends to drown in all other things. 

47 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Listen, I'm not defending things like deforming children, putting poison in our food...but you should'a known better, kidssssss!

That's how undeliberately evil you sound right now haha.

Not saying the kids should know better, but whoever do the spraying of glyphosat so close to residential areas. 

[DieselDaisy]

You could literally write a 5000 word list on reasons why Monsanto are absolute scum.

[wasted]

12 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Humanity is such a mess.

One of its biggest moral authorities are pedophiles who wear special hats and we all eat poison food. While we spin round and around on an orb in a seemingly infinite abyss screaming "Are we alone in the universe!" while we kill each other and the other species. 

When you hear that bomb blast grab the shot glass. 

If it wasn’t a disaster I’m not sure I would be able to live. 

[wasted]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You could literally write a 5000 word list on reasons why Monsanto are absolute scum.

Absolute scum is so subjective though. 

[Len Cnut]

9 minutes ago, wasted said:

Absolute scum is so subjective though. 

Its all about the bottom line end of the day innit, in all walks of life.  It just so happens that the bigger the organisation the more people the results effect.  Governments, Corporations etc, from a moral perspective are all absolute scum.  But what can ya do?  Listen to The Clash and hope the Lord sees that your heart is pure.

[wasted]

18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

And they didn't? Is it really Monsanto's fault if someone has been misusing their product? Is it BMWs fault when someone crashes their car? Not necessarily. What I haven't seen is evidence that Monsanto has misled or lied about the inherent, known dangers of glyphosat or its usage. But not saying their didn't, just that such genuine criticism tends to drown in all other things. 

Not saying the kids should know better, but whoever do the spraying of glyphosat so close to residential areas. 

Everybody know that the dice are loaded. 

It’s like PEDs, one year it’s legal, the next it’s a federal crime. 

It’s all not great so where you draw the line. Who predicts that? We already dropped the bomb. 

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Its all about the bottom line end of the day innit, in all walks of life.  It just so happens that the bigger the organisation the more people the results effect.  Governments, Corporations etc, from a moral perspective are all absolute scum.  But what can ya do?  Listen to The Clash and hope the Lord sees that your heart is pure.

But if something I think is morally wrong is the reason I’m alive, the best I can say is it’s subjective. 

[SoulMonster]

What I miss is the evidence that Monsanto instructed a usage of their pesticides that they knew would result in disease. I think that piece of evidence is crucial. And it might exist, maybe in some of those articles that were posted. But just appealing to emotion, or pointing out that the system is flawed, doesn't do it for me when it comes to who is at blame. Monsanto is evil because of child leukemia or Monsanto is evil because pesticides are carcinogenic, isn't enough. I miss some causative steps there. But I am also not predisposed to hate on large multinational companies that disrupt dear industries and hence communities by aggressively selling progressive products like generically modified crops

[Len Cnut]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What I miss is the evidence that Monsanto instructed a usage of their pesticides that they knew would result in disease. I think that piece of evidence is crucial. And it might exist, maybe in some of those articles that were posted. But just appealing to emotion, or pointing out that the system is flawed, doesn't do it for me when it comes to who is at blame. Monsanto is evil because of child leukemia or Monsanto is evil because pesticides are carcinogenic, isn't enough. I miss some causative steps there. But I am also not predisposed to hate on large multinational companies that disrupt dear industries and hence communities by aggressively selling progressive products like generically modified crops

Even if they didn't know its still pretty fucked up though right?  I mean if you don't do due dilligence about this shit you are basically endangering a fuckload of lives.  I'm not a fuckin' scientist by any means but I woulda thought this shit would be tested, tested and re-tested to make sure the shit is safe.

[wasted]

15 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What I miss is the evidence that Monsanto instructed a usage of their pesticides that they knew would result in disease. I think that piece of evidence is crucial. And it might exist, maybe in some of those articles that were posted. But just appealing to emotion, or pointing out that the system is flawed, doesn't do it for me when it comes to who is at blame. Monsanto is evil because of child leukemia or Monsanto is evil because pesticides are carcinogenic, isn't enough. I miss some causative steps there. But I am also not predisposed to hate on large multinational companies that disrupt dear industries and hence communities by aggressively selling progressive products like generically modified crops

Even if there was evidence they knew it would be tenuous about who knew what. Generally CEOs know nothing. Like dictators with a weapons program, the scientists just say what doesn’t get them tortured to death. Within  reason of course. 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by wasted