Hyperbole: Think about it like this...

[wasted]

1 hour ago, soon said:

Our conversation has turned into the 3rd hour of an acid trip! Where concepts like 'fear' and 'truth' shed there previous meanings, but the new meaning hasn't yet been uncovered. 

Im no expert on the subject, but have always been drawn to more moderate PoMo voices, like Derrida. The idea of seeing some good and even putting useful things together for the greater good. Still not sure where that manner of thinking bridges with Post Truth (hey, wanna call it PoTru?). The main difference in our application of the two frameworks is that I do not see PoMo as destabilizing. Not in the real world application that is. The reason why is that to apply a PoMo analysis to patriarchy one must be able and willing to address the reality of a patriarchy. We've been talking deconstruction vs destabilization. In my view the willingness to acknowledge something exists before unpacking it is lightyears more connected to reality than the PoTru lie that one cannot know these things like patriarchy exist. That is destabilizing in the real world.

I agree that Trump is a symptom not a cause of the unraveling of truth. Im not yet on side with the majority who agree that "Trump says what people were thinking" though. Not totally. When I watch his faithful applaud and belly laugh at his nonsense. Theres no way people want to say things he says because they make no sense and are random musings on things like hairspray. No way people think all that mumbo-jumbo - its impossible! 

When I see Trump speak to his faithful I am reminded of WWF wrestling (Which Trump had storylines in, no less). So then Id ask if people enjoy WWF because it plays out what they want to say and do? I really, really do not think that people want to dress in florescent thongs while breaking a table over the back of someone while exclaiming "You used to be my friend, Freezer Bag Bandit!!" Many certainly dont appear to want to hit the gym daily. To me Trump is still a WWF storyline and people like those independent of it acting our their inner thoughts. The only things that I think apply as 'giving voice to the people' is his bigotry.

These people are assholes who fear a world where not everyone in a movie is white . They fear the machinations of the Federal Government as much for their inability to comprehend it, as they do for valid reasons. Here comes a guy that will provide his own comic relief, say nothing smart about governance and gives voice to bigots, including White Nationalists.

How fear drives one away from truth and not towards it is something I can grasp on one level but not quite 'get.'

I just think the same postmodern scenarios led to some good things and some bad. Although we may not like certain outcomes, they probably do exist. To some people or situations it could be destabilizing. Reassessing things undrstanding hierarchies  produce certain outcomes works out in a postive way in some areas. But do the same in other areas and it might not be something you really like. We can’t control it in the culture. The patriarchy was a truth at some point. 

I’m not American so it’s hard to say, but Trump does seem to rep that Wrestlemania mentality. Every issue seems well balanced, there’s two sides to every issue. So he just plays that role. 

I think that may be true in some cases but that’s not everyone who voted for Trump. The main problem I have is that Trump just ran to win by any means necessary. It’s marketing campaign mixed with a TV show devices. But is that his fault or the cultures? Maybe America is a reality tv show at this point. It’s a simulation of reality. 

I suppose fear can be an unconscious motivating factor, people don’t know they are afraid. They just find their truth. Self interest is fear. 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

15 minutes ago, wasted said:

I just think the same postmodern scenarios led to some good things and some bad. Although we may not like certain outcomes, they probably do exist. To some people or situations it could be destabilizing. Reassessing things undrstanding hierarchies  produce certain outcomes works out in a postive way in some areas. But do the same in other areas and it might not be something you really like. We can’t control it in the culture. The patriarchy was a truth at some point. 

I’m not American so it’s hard to say, but Trump does seem to rep that Wrestlemania mentality. Every issue seems well balanced. 

I think that may be true in some cases but that’s not everyone who voted for Trump. The main problem I have is that Trump just ran to win by any means necessary. It’s marketing capaign mixed with a TV show devices. But is that his fault or the cultures? Maybe America is a reality tv show at this point. It’s a simulation of reality. 

I suppose fear can be an unconscious motivating factor, people don’t know they are afraid. They just find their truth. Self interest is fear. 

 

A PoMo analysis simply produces thought, though. It doesnt need to be applied. The production of the thought doesnt itself make structural changes. PoTru halts thought production and burns the books. That in itself is a real world impact. It produces structural changes some of which we are discussing, like Trumpism.

I suppose language like "both sides" really does point to a reality show or wrestling storyline. Because no American is just watching these two sides. Everyone has a position and a role. Observing "both sides" is an abdication of not only responsibility but reason. Just a neutral observer of the pageant of history? Of their own lives?

And whereas some mean Dem v GOP, others mean Organized Hate v "antifa." The two party system, I believe we can take as read, has adapted to the television age long ago and digital now too - it is a spectacle saying look at me! And will do and be all that the people need it to be to not change the station. But the new "both sides" can be summed up as the "selfie generation" where on one side you have right wing Identitarians and on the left you have the identify politics. So all these "both sides" are screaming "look at me!" snapping selfies. And the rest (also in truth a part of the so called "both sides) just consume the show. Like reality itself has become just a tool to sell some popcorn. One can watch the gladiators kill the Christians on demand on their smartphones. Place bets. Be soothed.

Rene Girards The Scapegoat comes to mind "Girard's starting point is the recurrence of the scapegoat figure or surrogate victim in myths and rituals throughout the world. He argues that such myths had their origin in real acts of collective violence, in which an innocent victim was sacrificed to restore order to the community."

But in todays America, the fear for some of the end of White Male Dominance at home and the fear of the loss of US Global Domination for others seems to require a daily scapegoat. Or would it be the longing for a strong man who's the only one able to provide the ultimate scapegoat?

[wasted]

10 hours ago, soon said:

A PoMo analysis simply produces thought, though. It doesnt need to be applied. The production of the thought doesnt itself make structural changes. PoTru halts thought production and burns the books. That in itself is a real world impact. It produces structural changes some of which we are discussing, like Trumpism.

I suppose language like "both sides" really does point to a reality show or wrestling storyline. Because no American is just watching these two sides. Everyone has a position and a role. Observing "both sides" is an abdication of not only responsibility but reason. Just a neutral observer of the pageant of history? Of their own lives?

And whereas some mean Dem v GOP, others mean Organized Hate v "antifa." The two party system, I believe we can take as read, has adapted to the television age long ago and digital now too - it is a spectacle saying look at me! And will do and be all that the people need it to be to not change the station. But the new "both sides" can be summed up as the "selfie generation" where on one side you have right wing Identitarians and on the left you have the identify politics. So all these "both sides" are screaming "look at me!" snapping selfies. And the rest (also in truth a part of the so called "both sides) just consume the show. Like reality itself has become just a tool to sell some popcorn. One can watch the gladiators kill the Christians on demand on their smartphones. Place bets. Be soothed.

Rene Girards The Scapegoat comes to mind "Girard's starting point is the recurrence of the scapegoat figure or surrogate victim in myths and rituals throughout the world. He argues that such myths had their origin in real acts of collective violence, in which an innocent victim was sacrificed to restore order to the community."

But in todays America, the fear for some of the end of White Male Dominance at home and the fear of the loss of US Global Domination for others seems to require a daily scapegoat. Or would it be the longing for a strong man who's the only one able to provide the ultimate scapegoat?

It doesn’t need to be applied but it becomes a truth under the conditions. That’s how I’m explaining things we don’t understand. In this wrestlemania culture/hyper-real world the messages don’t mask a truth, but the sign (Trump) is real in the simulation. That’s how I explain why I can’t find the truth below. 

I think the only sane thing to do is stand outside because the issues are complex, to pick a side is basically being wrong. It’s to give up on the search for truth. 

In some cases people voted for Trump out of racism or hate, but I’m not sure that that is the whole story of immigration. On paper I’m for open borders, but how do you make that work with welfare for example? Economically how do you carry the burden. Is there not a debate to be had there? It’s not based in racism.  Trump is the worst person to deliver the message though. His whole style is neo fascist. 

For example people in the Rust Belt are broke. There seems to be no way to help them. Obama said he would and they voted for him. Hillary didn’t lie to them, Trump did and won. 

What came first the scapegoat or the broke? I would say it’s the broke. That’s the underlying problem. To just say they are part of some white supremacy conspiracy is crazy. They are just poor and scared. 

 And they see money going to foreign wars no one cares about (but their kids have to die in) and money going to immigration. Like you said they are taking part in life, they have to make decisions for themselves. To call them all racists and part of white male dominance is kind of harsh? They mostly just tick a box and go back to reality tv. 

If Obama and Hillary have the solution that would be all good. You can have all the immigration you want if you can keep enough people happy to get elected, but they kind of failed at the game. Trump is also failing. None of them seem to care that much. That’s why like with Brexit you just have to borrow money and take your welfare and go home. It’s too big to dismantle. Just hold hands and go down with the ship. 

I think I did a good impression of the right. But they are real points. You can’t just put everything in that fascist box and throw it away. I don’t think doubling down on all the things that lost Hillary the election is going to work. It will drive people underground. 

Maybe people really don’t want democracy they just want a totalitarian state for their own views. That’s the real danger in throwing Trump voters away and deplatforming people, it becomes more authoritarian than what you hate. 

That’s why I go back to the top. These signs don’t lead to truth. It’s like a game of pin ball with a ball that never exits. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

11 hours ago, wasted said:

It doesn’t need to be applied but it becomes a truth under the conditions. That’s how I’m explaining things we don’t understand. In this wrestlemania culture/hyper-real world the messages don’t mask a truth, but the sign (Trump) is real in the simulation. That’s how I explain why I can’t find the truth below. 

I think the only sane thing to do is stand outside because the issues are complex, to pick a side is basically being wrong. It’s to give up on the search for truth. 

In some cases people voted for Trump out of racism or hate, but I’m not sure that that is the whole story of immigration. On paper I’m for open borders, but how do you make that work with welfare for example? Economically how do you carry the burden. Is there not a debate to be had there? It’s not based in racism.  Trump is the worst person to deliver the message though. His whole style is neo fascist. 

For example people in the Rust Belt are broke. There seems to be no way to help them. Obama said he would and they voted for him. Hillary didn’t lie to them, Trump did and won. 

What came first the scapegoat or the broke? I would say it’s the broke. That’s the underlying problem. To just say they are part of some white supremacy conspiracy is crazy. They are just poor and scared. 

 And they see money going to foreign wars no one cares about (but their kids have to die in) and money going to immigration. Like you said they are taking part in life, they have to make decisions for themselves. To call them all racists and part of white male dominance is kind of harsh? They mostly just tick a box and go back to reality tv. 

If Obama and Hillary have the solution that would be all good. You can have all the immigration you want if you can keep enough people happy to get elected, but they kind of failed at the game. Trump is also failing. None of them seem to care that much. That’s why like with Brexit you just have to borrow money and take your welfare and go home. It’s too big to dismantle. Just hold hands and go down with the ship. 

I think I did a good impression of the right. But they are real points. You can’t just put everything in that fascist box and throw it away. I don’t think doubling down on all the things that lost Hillary the election is going to work. It will drive people underground. 

Maybe people really don’t want democracy they just want a totalitarian state for their own views. That’s the real danger in throwing Trump voters away and deplatforming people, it becomes more authoritarian than what you hate. 

That’s why I go back to the top. These signs don’t lead to truth. It’s like a game of pin ball with a ball that never exits. 

Taken as a whole in this post you seem to suggest that I am taking complex issues and reducing them down to "racism." I am not doing that. What I see happening is I am talking about complexities and then you are reducing all that Im saying down to "racism."

I would never endorse picking a side in the BS 2 party system, not in so far as becoming a true believer.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, soon said:

Taken as a whole in this post you seem to suggest that I am taking complex issues and reducing them down to "racism." I am not doing that. What I see happening is I am talking about complexities and then you are reducing all that Im saying down to "racism."

I would never endorse picking a side in the BS 2 party system, not in so far as becoming a true believer.

Not you in particular, just that is one side of it, which I get, I can see why/how that is racist from certain postmodern analysis. Then I outlined the other side, which I think is valid from the Rust Belt pov. Mainly I can’t see how you can decide between the two. So to use hyberbole really leads to tribalism. 

That’s why I’m going for the Baudrillard alien simulation theory.

Like I said I can’t find the truth in either side, so it’s not you that reduced it to “racism” it was me. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

5 hours ago, wasted said:

Not you in particular, just that is one side of it, which I get, I can see why/how that is racist from certain postmodern analysis. Then I outlined the other side, which I think is valid from the Rust Belt pov. Mainly I can’t see how you can decide between the two. So to use hyberbole really leads to tribalism. 

That’s why I’m going for the Baudrillard alien simulation theory.

Like I said I can’t find the truth in either side, so it’s not you that reduced it to “racism” it was me. 

Oh, thanks for clarifying. 

When I spoke about some having fears of loosing US Global Dominance I was, in part, speaking to the effect trade deals have had on workers and families in places like the rust belt. The notion that workers lives were compromised by deals with "lesser" Countries. In light of the US having installed dictators in places like Latin America, Africa, Middle East, etc, the idea of dominance means not loosing work to foreign countries. Like Trumps build a wall and have mexico pay for it represents this ideal of US Global Domination. And certainly there are racial aspects and white supremacist currents running through that general concept of US Global Dominance, but the suffering working class family only needs to see their own earning power traded away to increasingly powerful economies abroad.

Am I just watching other watch a simulation, then? I know Im alive and free.

Edited September 11, 2018 by soon

[wasted]

28 minutes ago, soon said:

Oh, thanks for clarifying. 

When I spoke about some having fears of loosing US Global Dominance, I was in part, speaking to the effect trade deals have had on workers and families in places like the rust belt. The notion that workers lives were compromised by deals with "lesser" Countries. In light of the US having installed dictators in Countries in Latin America, Africa, Middle East, etc, the idea of dominance means not loosing work to foreign countries. Like Trumps build a wall and have mexico pay for it represents this ideal of US Global Domination. And certainly there are racial aspects and white supremacist currents running through that general concept of US Global Dominance, but the suffering working class family only needs to see their own earning power traded away to increasingly powerful economies abroad.

Am I just watching other watch a simulation, then? I know Im alive and free.

I’m not sure it’s a simulation in terms of the fabric of reality. It’s more the the signs/issues become so far removed from a truth. A little bit like how Trump acts or mimics  world leaders. There’s echoes of Reagan but no sunstance. Or Russia Collusion is his Watergate. His impending impeachment. It had this de ja vu quality. But it all seems hollow, like a TV show they are showing us. 

You’re saying that Trump doing trade deals doesn’t really bring work back to the Rust belt? That’s true I think they are fucked. The US isn’t a huge manufacturing powerhouse anymore. Nothing will change, people aren’t going to put in the gruelling work to learn how to make iphones even. It’s like a simulation of a country. Welcome to Chimerica. We borrow money to consume the goods made elsewhere. It’s like one of those 80s arcade parties. Where did these token actually come from?

Edited September 11, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

7 hours ago, wasted said:

I’m not sure it’s a simulation in terms of the fabric of reality. It’s more the the signs/issues become so far removed from a truth. A little bit like how Trump acts or mimics  world leaders. There’s echoes of Reagan but no sunstance. Or Russia Collusion is his Watergate. His impending impeachment. It had this de ja vu quality. But it all seems hollow, like a TV show they are showing us. 

You’re saying that Trump doing trade deals doesn’t really bring work back to the Rust belt? That’s true I think they are fucked. The US isn’t a huge manufacturing powerhouse anymore. Nothing will change, people aren’t going to put in the gruelling work to learn how to make iphones even. It’s like a simulation of a country. Welcome to Chimerica. We borrow money to consume the goods made elsewhere. It’s like one of those 80s arcade parties. Where did these token actually come from?

Oh, I got you about the simulation now. I gotta dig into Baudrillard. I felt that reality wash over me during he US elections. Things like "of course trump wont win" or the flawed notion that a feminist would vote for Hillary rather then a candidate who actually has feminist informed policies such as Sanders. I felt a growing disconnection with many people around me. I felt and still feel that my observations that voter polls cant be off by that huge margin, that feminism is a praxis not a body, are well founded but I seemed to be alone in those thoughts. And it really did feel like this other 'thing' was flowing passed me like water. 

I meant more that trade deals previous to Trump put the paranoia around US becoming less dominant on the world stage in motion. And becoming less savage, it may seem, in the process. But I do agree with what you've written too. They need new training and new economic drivers. And its very valid, imo, that people feel enraged and bewildered because these trainings and new economic situations should have been put in place prior to those agreements. They were a form of brutality, those secretive and hastened pre NAFTA dealings.

I really adore Ivan Illich, a Catholic, Social Theorist. His book The Right To Useful Unemployment really resonates with me. It sometimes seems like the West is starting to toy with ideas like guaranteed minimum incomes across all the population in preparation for when we just live off of an economy of machines and each take a tiny share of the GDP. But this to me would be different than Illichs ethos. His was informed by Marxist thought on leisure too. But I dont see how a capitalist framework would come to the jobless population in the same 'spirit' for want of a better word. Because the Marxist ideals around light work due to machines was premised around a cultured population who had buy in to the idea that they'd use their freedom to contribute to vibrant culture and thought. On humanitarian volunteerism. In my view, the Capitalists leading us to a work free scenario would leave us still wanting the capitalists to build a McCulture for us. Not many would have a life of Useful Unemployment, imo. (Bit of a tangent, inspired by your arcade token analogy)

Edited September 11, 2018 by soon

[DeadSlash]

Holy hell,  I was all like "People be exaggerating for no good reason." and you guys come in with your pipes and smoking jackets, speaking Latin.    < hyperbole!

I am a pretty well educated person, but I feel dumb as hell when reading your conversations.

[wasted]

8 hours ago, soon said:

Oh, I got you about the simulation now. I gotta dig into Baudrillard. I felt that reality wash over me during he US elections. Things like "of course trump wont win" or the flawed notion that a feminist would vote for Hillary rather then a candidate who actually has feminist informed policies such as Sanders. I felt a growing disconnection with many people around me. I felt and still feel that my observations that voter polls cant be off by that huge margin, that feminism is a praxis not a body, are well founded but I seemed to be alone in those thoughts. And it really did feel like this other 'thing' was flowing passed me like water. 

I meant more that trade deals previous to Trump put the paranoia around US becoming less dominant on the world stage in motion. And becoming less savage, it may seem, in the process. But I do agree with what you've written too. They need new training and new economic drivers. And its very valid, imo, that people feel enraged and bewildered because these trainings and new economic situations should have been put in place prior to those agreements. They were a form of brutality, those secretive and hastened pre NAFTA dealings.

I really adore Ivan Illich, a Catholic, Social Theorist. His book The Right To Useful Unemployment really resonates with me. It sometimes seems like the West is starting to toy with ideas like guaranteed minimum incomes across all the population in preparation for when we just live off of an economy of machines and each take a tiny share of the GDP. But this to me would be different than Illichs ethos. His was informed by Marxist thought on leisure too. But I dont see how a capitalist framework would come to the jobless population in the same 'spirit' for want of a better word. Because the Marxist ideals around light work due to machines was premised around a cultured population who had buy in to the idea that they'd use their freedom to contribute to vibrant culture and thought. On humanitarian volunteerism. In my view, the Capitalists leading us to a work free scenario would leave us still wanting the capitalists to build a McCulture for us. Not many would have a life of Useful Unemployment, imo. (Bit of a tangent, inspired by your arcade token analogy)

What would be easier for the 1% to keep people happy and in control, bringing back meaningful work or lower the cost of life to zero via technology? In a way that’s the China style, rice and vegetables but moving into conveinence store lunch boxes. Then you have a device like an ipad to entertain yourself forever. I see one price entertainment package deals and cheap processed foods as the future. Then just everything is free if you go to 8 social media platforms a day. 

I’m burning off the Nike swoosh off my socks in protest to questioning American dominance. That need to be the best is ingrained. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

5 hours ago, DeadSlash said:

Holy hell,  I was all like "People be exaggerating for no good reason." and you guys come in with your pipes and smoking jackets, speaking Latin.    < hyperbole!

I am a pretty well educated person, but I feel dumb as hell when reading your conversations.

You Tom Cruise and I’m Rainman. Let’s take Hyperbole to Vegas. 

[soon]

9 hours ago, wasted said:

What would be easier for the 1% to keep people happy and in control, bringing back meaningful work or lower the cost of life to zero via technology? In a way that’s the China style, rice and vegetables but moving into conveinence store lunch boxes. Then you have a device like an ipad to entertain yourself forever. I see one price entertainment package deals and cheap processed foods as the future. Then just everything is free if you go to 8 social media platforms a day. 

I’m burning off the Nike swoosh off my socks in protest to questioning American dominance. That need to be the best is ingrained. 

I saw a kickstarter for an automated mealworm farm for home/apartment use. Run remotely by a smart phone app. Solar is expected to get more affordable and user friendly in the next few years which could lend itself to home vegetable cultivation. Could all be designed as an internet of things eco system. Maybe we will be paid to produce our own food and energy? Fill all the grazing pastures with condos.

The Singularity seems to sit within both our premises. The 'not good, not bad, just is' view doesnt really suggest that even elites have much control over it. More then us, but are maybe forced with the 'just is' of it all too? Or maybe Ray Kurzweil's Singularity is just a prime example of hyperbole in the media?

Meanwhile Nike just looked at market shares and asked themselves if they really couldn't steal some of the Kanye demographic.

[soon]

15 hours ago, DeadSlash said:

Holy hell,  I was all like "People be exaggerating for no good reason." and you guys come in with your pipes and smoking jackets, speaking Latin.    < hyperbole!

I am a pretty well educated person, but I feel dumb as hell when reading your conversations.

As for my posts, clearly you are being far to kind. Or polite... or mean.... its really hard to tell on here these days . Maybe my posts are so dumb that it rubs off on the reader, like that Happy Gilmour clip 

[wasted]

49 minutes ago, soon said:

I saw a kickstarter for an automated mealworm farm for home/apartment use. Run remotely by a smart phone app. Solar is expected to get more affordable and user friendly in the next few years which could lend itself to home vegetable cultivation. Could all be designed as an internet of things eco system. Maybe we will be paid to produce our own food and energy? Fill all the grazing pastures with condos.

The Singularity seems to sit within both our premises. The 'not good, not bad, just is' view doesnt really suggest that even elites have much control over it. More then us, but are maybe forced with the 'just is' of it all too? Or maybe Ray Kurzweil's Singularity is just a prime example of hyperbole in the media?

Meanwhile Nike just looked at market shares and asked themselves if they really couldn't steal some of the Kanye demographic.

That’s what is strange about taking issue with products. Somebody in that company there has to be someone you hate. So do you not buy or use anything? 

It seems like a case of can we turn this around? Probably not, but we have all this unrefined sugar, let’s just sell that. That’s what we do, it just is. As long as everyone’s good just keeping going. 

I think someone in the south of England was saying he had a solar panel on his house. He couldn’t get rid of it, and he got money to maintain it from the government. 

I think if you put on VR googles and use your phone, google becomes your memory, Minecraft becomes your sight. I think sensory applications will probably change the world. At that point I think they can restart the game. 

Bill Withers plays over the credits of humankind. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]