The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[downzy]

8 hours ago, Rindmelon said:

When did this leak? They will just say it's AI

A few days ago...  There is actually one or two more images.  The Vance campaign didn't deny it was him (nor did they confirm it).

I believe they were posted on Facebook back in the 2009 when Vance was attending Yale law school.  Apparently the images are backed up by accounts from other students.

 

[evilfacelessturtle]

Harris leans into populism with proposal for middle-class and lower-income tax relief

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/harris-has-proposed-a-slew-of-economic-policies-heres-a-look-at-whats-in-them

Sparknotes:

• Enforce antitrust laws against food monopolies
• Incentivize housing construction, especially starter homes
• Business incentives for affordable rental units
• Limiting bulk purchase of homes by investors
• Curbing the use of real estate price-fixing tools like Realpage
• Down-payment assistance for first time homebuyers
• Accelerate Medicare negotiation for lower drug prices
• Cancelling medical debt for up to 3 million Americans
• Make child tax credit permament
• Expand Earned Income tax credit
• Cut taxes on ACA health plans

That first one is great news to me. I'm sure many of you have seen this graphic before:

Those 10 brands control 80% of all food sold in America. Insanity.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Trump was supposed to talk about the economy. Never did. He compared one mint to a box of TicTacs and said this is inflation. Still making fun of Biden, who he is no longer running against.

Now he's picking his family for his cabinet should he win. what a freaking Moron.

Bill Mauhr said months ago that if Trumps wins again as President he would put his family and friends in his cabinet and no actual Republicans. Why and who would vote for this asshole. I want him so gone

3 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Harris leans into populism with proposal for middle-class and lower-income tax relief

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/harris-has-proposed-a-slew-of-economic-policies-heres-a-look-at-whats-in-them

Sparknotes:

• Enforce antitrust laws against food monopolies
• Incentivize housing construction, especially starter homes
• Business incentives for affordable rental units
• Limiting bulk purchase of homes by investors
• Curbing the use of real estate price-fixing tools like Realpage
• Down-payment assistance for first time homebuyers
• Accelerate Medicare negotiation for lower drug prices
• Cancelling medical debt for up to 3 million Americans
• Make child tax credit permament
• Expand Earned Income tax credit
• Cut taxes on ACA health plans

That first one is great news to me. I'm sure many of you have seen this graphic before:

Those 10 brands control 80% of all food sold in America. Insanity.

If Trump gets in there won't be a middle class, we'll all be poor and he won't give a shit.

Trump will give al lthe rich people big tax cuts and the rest of us won't get shit.

He's a liar and a fraud. He's a convicted felon and shouldn't even be allowed to run for President. What the Hell is going on in America?

[Illusion1987]

1/3 the country feels the same way about the other side and 1/3 are moderates that don't like either candidate 

That's the problem- both candidates are on extreme ends of the spectrum. 

I think if there was more of a Bill Clinton type of Democrat, they'd have a way better chance at beating Trump.

As always, moderates will determine the election....why modern politicians continue to drift further right/left is beyond me.

The key to becoming president is the capture the centrists.

 

[downzy]

2 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

That's the problem- both candidates are on extreme ends of the spectrum. 

I'd be curious what you consider extreme about Kamala Harris's politics.  

[Illusion1987]

22 hours ago, downzy said:

I'd be curious what you consider extreme about Kamala Harris's politics.  

Basically everything and I'm a voter that voted for Bill Clinton,  Barack Obama twice, and Joe Biden so I'm the perfect "moderate" voter

- position on the border (I'm in Texas, it is a hot mess here right now). I was speaking with a Mexican National, a lawyer that actually works in the Mexican consulate here in Houston and he called the border "pure anarchy" right now. His unsolicited words,  not mine.

- Economic policies which have been uncessful the last four years in controlling inflation and yesterday she proposed to implement price increase measures to certain businesses like grocery stores. That gets dangerously close to communism measures to control capitalistic markets (something that sets America apart from other nations that do this). 

To me, the inflation is DIRECTLY related to the open borders. More demand = higher prices. The market will adjust prices if items are not sold and nowhere is this more obvious than grocery stores.

Estimates are that we've let in more illegals over the last 3.5 years than the total COMBINED number of  Ellis Island immigrants. That quick absorption definitely leads to inflation, less housing, more competitive job markets, etc

Furthmore, i work in the real estate industry (projects all over the United States) and we are at a holding period right now.  The high interest rates is making projects unfeasible and developers are opting to walk away from projects before they reach construction.  Im seeing a bunch of that. 

Wages are DEFINITELY not keeping up with inflation and THAT is a problem for a high % of Americans...may be their deciding issue. 

- Her VP selection which pushed "her ticket" even further Left  INSTEAD of towards the center but to be fair, Trump also made this mistake- his ticket was pushed further Right with his VP selection.  Incredibly stupid moves by both sides (you have to win over undecided moderate voters, NOT solidify your base that will be there regardless)

Back to the VP's selection:

The Governor's stance on unlawfulness in the Minnesota riots is well documented as is his stance on gender re-assignment. Would you, as a parent, be comfortable having your son or daughter getting genital surgery because their school counselor recommended it which overrides, you,  the parent's consent? 

 

On Harris, here is a 2020 article from the Washington Examiner that further explores her liberalism. Remember,  the 2020 was "supposed" to be 'left of Center' Biden + Progressive Harris even though his presidency definitely swung in her direction. 

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2631522/kamala-harriss-liberalism-is-no-laughing-matter/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Pmax_USA_Magazine_21-June-Intent-Audience-Signals&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn4CQrKT9hwMVqw-tBh1BtB5OEAMYASAAEgKWsvD_BwE

 

Like I said this is NOT the Democrat party that brought us Bill Clinton or even a 1st term Barack Obama and I'm no MAGA supporter...I'm just a moderate that is 7-0 in my presidential votes so I'd like to think I have a pulse, from a Centrists standpoint, on  that ignored 1/3 of voters and their selection which actually DECIDES the election.

 

Still too early to call but I'm thinking many centrists may think that while Trump is a giant A hole douche bag, he may be the less dangerous of the two options for them,  their family, and economic situation 

The devil you know...better than the one you don't. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18 by Illusion1987

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

- position on the border (I'm in Texas, it is a hot mess here right now). I was speaking with a Mexican National, a lawyer that actually works in the Mexican consulate here in Houston and he called the border "pure anarchy" right now. His unsolicited words,  not mine.

First, can you point me to statements by Harris that claims she wants an open border? 

Second, you understand the President can't just shut down the border, right?  Biden's efforts have been repeatedly struck down in court.  Many of the actions taken by Trump in his final year as President to stem the flow of immigrants were granted temporary permission because of the pandemic.  Once the pandemic receded, courts were not willing to give the Biden administration as much leeway in using executive action to stem the flow of people illegally crossing the border.

Third, Democrats negotiated a bi-partisan immigration bill that would have drastically increased the number of ICE agents and security measures.  But Trump told Republicans to kill the bill because he didn't want to give Biden/Harris a win during an election year.  Even the Republican co-sponsor admitted that Trump and Republicans are the reason why Congress did nothing to help the situation.

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

- Economic policies which have been uncessful the last four years in controlling inflation and yesterday she proposed to implement price increase measures to certain businesses like grocery stores. That gets dangerously close to communism measures to control capitalistic markets (something that sets America apart from other nations that do this). 

First, communism isn't price controls.  Communism is government control and ownership over the means of production.

Second, Harris didn't propose price increases on groceries.  She vowed to go after price gouging by corporations, that raise prices above and beyond what the market should be dictating.

Third, the United States has faired better than every other developed nation with respect to taming inflation.  It achieved higher levels of GDP growth over the last four years than at any point during Trump's presidency, while also seeing the lowest rates of inflation than any other developed or western nation.  Has it been perfect?  No.  But there's limits to what can be done considering some of inflation can be sourced back to corporate greed (again, something Harris claims she'll combat if President) and disruption to supply chains (i.e., less supply).

Fourth, do yourself a favour and look at what Trump is promising if elected.  He'll immediately slap a 10 percent tariff on any product or material that comes into the United States.  That's essentially a ten percent tax that will largely be paid for by Americans.  He also wants to slap a 50 percent tariff on every product coming in from China.  Prices for good made overseas will jump dramatically.  He also wants to gut taxes, which will likely spike interest rates since it will increase deficits dramatically (just like his last tax cut did), which will make mortgage payments significantly higher.  Finally, his mass deportation proposal could potentially kick tens of millions of people out of the country.  If you think the cost of construction is high now, wait until hundreds of thousands of Mexicans are kicked out and builders have to pay substantially more for a short supply of construction workers.

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

To me, the inflation is DIRECTLY related to the open borders. More demand = higher prices. The market will adjust prices if items are not sold and nowhere is this more obvious than grocery stores.

 

As I noted before, your understanding of the border situation is incorrect nor does it lead to higher prices.  A big reason why Americans pay so little for fruits and vegetables is because much of it is picked by undocumented workers. 

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

Estimates are that we've let in more illegals over the last 3.5 years than the total COMBINED number of  Ellis Island immigrants.

Well, 12 million people passed through Ellis island.  I'm having a hard time believing that more than 12 million people have illegally entered the US through Mexico in the last 3.5 years.

In any event, this crisis is one manufactured by Trump.  There was a bill negotiated in good faith by both Republicans and Democrats and Trump killed it.  You can't blame Biden/Harris for a problem that Trump wants to prolong simply for his own political benefit.

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

The high interest rates is making projects unfeasible and developers are opting to walk away from projects before they reach construction.  Im seeing a bunch of that. 

Higher interest rates are helping to bring inflation down.  The President has no control over interest rates (they're set by the Fed, which the President doesn't control). 

You can't complain about inflation and then turn around and complain about the mechanism by which the government helps to bring inflation down.

1 hour ago, Illusion1987 said:

Wages are DEFINITELY not keeping up with inflation and THAT is a problem for a high % of Americans...may be their deciding issue

That was true from April, 2021 to February, 2023.  But that hasn't been the case in the last year and a half, with wages 2-2.5 points higher than inflation:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/

I'm sure you're familiar with the economic term "lag effect."  National economies don't turn on a dime.  It takes 12-18 months before measures like interest rates take effect.  Blaming Biden for higher inflation over wages for the first year is a bit absurd since it takes at least year or two for any efforts his administration makes to take any effect.

2 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

The Governor's stance on unlawfulness in the Minnesota riots is well documented as is his stance on gender re-assignment.

Walz was one of the few governors to call in the national guard during the George Floyd protests/riots.  You'll have to explain more what you mean by his stance on unlawfulness being well documented.  Even Trump backed up Walz at the time: "I know Gov. Walz is on the phone, and we spoke, and I fully agree with the way he handled it the last couple of days.” 

2 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Would you, as a parent, be comfortable having your son or daughter getting genital surgery because their school counselor recommended it which overrides, you,  the parent's consent? 

Is that the current policy in Minnesota under Walz?  I'm having a hard time believing that a school councillor's decision supersedes the wishes of a parent.  

2 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

On Harris, here is a 2020 article from the Washington Examiner that further explores her liberalism. Remember,  the 2020 was "supposed" to be 'left of Center' Biden + Progressive Harris even though his presidency definitely swung in her direction. 

Did you read the article?  It concludes that because Harris didn't answer the question to the interviewer's liking, she's supportive of a far left agenda (that she would then push Biden on during his presidency).  According to the article, Harris would get Biden to expand the Supreme Court during his administration; that Biden would get rid of the filibuster, the Green New Deal would pass, and a socialist take over of healthcare would occur.  Did any of that happen?

Maybe wait to hear from Harris herself as she runs for President on these issues before you make up your mind.  Not sure sourcing your impression of her agenda on a four year old op-ed in a highly biased publication like the Washington Examiner is the way to go.

2 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Still too early to call but I'm thinking many centrists may think that while Trump is a giant A hole douche bag, he may be the less dangerous of the two options for them,  their family, and economic situation 

I really hope not.  Trump has proven himself an idiot on every issue.  His economic policies would raise prices, not lower them.  He'd isolate America even further from the rest of the world while also dividing the country itself.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe people care more about the price of groceries than living in a functional democracy.  Because with Trump they get a guy who tried to upend the last election.  I would hope that enough Americans would vote on principle and values than on the price of bacon (which he commonly says has increased by 5x, which is an absurd lie not supported by the facts).  

[Jim V.]

6 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Basically everything and I'm a voter that voted for Bill Clinton,  Barack Obama twice, and Joe Biden so I'm the perfect "moderate" voter

- position on the border (I'm in Texas, it is a hot mess here right now). I was speaking with a Mexican National, a lawyer that actually works in the Mexican consulate here in Houston and he called the border "pure anarchy" right now. His unsolicited words,  not mine.

- Economic policies which have been uncessful the last four years in controlling inflation and yesterday she proposed to implement price increase measures to certain businesses like grocery stores. That gets dangerously close to communism measures to control capitalistic markets (something that sets America apart from other nations that do this). 

To me, the inflation is DIRECTLY related to the open borders. More demand = higher prices. The market will adjust prices if items are not sold and nowhere is this more obvious than grocery stores.

Estimates are that we've let in more illegals over the last 3.5 years than the total COMBINED number of  Ellis Island immigrants. That quick absorption definitely leads to inflation, less housing, more competitive job markets, etc

Furthmore, i work in the real estate industry (projects all over the United States) and we are at a holding period right now.  The high interest rates is making projects unfeasible and developers are opting to walk away from projects before they reach construction.  Im seeing a bunch of that. 

Wages are DEFINITELY not keeping up with inflation and THAT is a problem for a high % of Americans...may be their deciding issue. 

- Her VP selection which pushed "her ticket" even further Left  INSTEAD of towards the center but to be fair, Trump also made this mistake- his ticket was pushed further Right with his VP selection.  Incredibly stupid moves by both sides (you have to win over undecided moderate voters, NOT solidify your base that will be there regardless)

Back to the VP's selection:

The Governor's stance on unlawfulness in the Minnesota riots is well documented as is his stance on gender re-assignment. Would you, as a parent, be comfortable having your son or daughter getting genital surgery because their school counselor recommended it which overrides, you,  the parent's consent? 

 

On Harris, here is a 2020 article from the Washington Examiner that further explores her liberalism. Remember,  the 2020 was "supposed" to be 'left of Center' Biden + Progressive Harris even though his presidency definitely swung in her direction. 

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2631522/kamala-harriss-liberalism-is-no-laughing-matter/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Pmax_USA_Magazine_21-June-Intent-Audience-Signals&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn4CQrKT9hwMVqw-tBh1BtB5OEAMYASAAEgKWsvD_BwE

 

Like I said this is NOT the Democrat party that brought us Bill Clinton or even a 1st term Barack Obama and I'm no MAGA supporter...I'm just a moderate that is 7-0 in my presidential votes so I'd like to think I have a pulse, from a Centrists standpoint, on  that ignored 1/3 of voters and their selection which actually DECIDES the election.

 

Still too early to call but I'm thinking many centrists may think that while Trump is a giant A hole douche bag, he may be the less dangerous of the two options for them,  their family, and economic situation 

The devil you know...better than the one you don't. 

 

 

 

 

You call them the “Democrat” Party instead of the Democratic Party, but I’m supposed to believe you voted for Clinton (maybe) and then Obama and Biden? Not buying it. Sounds like a dyed-in-the-wool MAGA. Maybe I’m wrong and it was an honest mistake, but I doubt it.

Here is an explanation of the “Democrat” Party thing, just in case some of you think I made this up…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet)

[Cosmo]

To say Kamala and Trump are equally extreme on opposite sides of the spectrum is completely insane. 

[Illusion1987]

No...

I voted for 

Clinton

Bush

Bush

Obama

Obama

Trump

Biden

?

 

That's as moderate/centrists as you and the one thing I've leavened from my friends that are die hard Republicans or Democrats is that the only thing they hate MORE than supporters of the other side is Undecided Moderates. They always tell me "you HAVE to pick a side...you MUST" as if it gives them extrene anxiety. No thanks!

If they don't feel you are 100% on THEIR side they will spew insults in your direction just as you have trying to paint me a MAGA lover....nothing can be further from the truth. It's a psychological thing- if you're not with us you MUST be against us.

Obama is probably the only president I've ever really respected and that's blasphemy in MAGA world...but he was tough on illegal immigration (look it up yourself).

As I mentioned 1/3 of the Democrats are going to vote for their candidate and defend him/her no matter who they run and As I mentioned 1/3 of the Ruplicans are going to vote for their candidate and defend him/her no matter who they run.

 

Fortunately the 1/3 of Moderate votes ACTUALLY determine elections. It's why the pollsters spend so much time/energy trying to understand WHO they will pick. 

Id say Moderates aren't Democrats or Republicans....they are Americans first!

And no...I have not made my final decision yet....we still have 2.5 months to go!

 

Edited August 18 by Illusion1987

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:17 PM, Illusion1987 said:

The key to becoming president is the capture the centrists.

Not according to any actual research. There are way more votes to be won by simply getting out the base than trying to win over moderates.

It's also the case that the vast majority of those who call themselves independents actually vote more like partisans:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/04/17/voting-independents-political-parties/

The amount of truly independent voters is small, around 5-10%.

[Rindmelon]

If anything the key is to win over the Electoral College. You can win the popular vote and still loose the election. Clinton received 2,868,691 more popular votes than Trump in 2016 and still lost. 

[evilfacelessturtle]

Gotta love the incoherent worldview of "centrists". And as you can see, when only one party is actually playing politics and pushing narratives, the politically disinterested only hear that one narrative and fall for it without even realizing they are repeating a partisan narrative.

Imagine if the "left wing media" were pushing the narrative that Trump wants to "lock the borders" and let no one in or out. Equally as absurd and factually incorrect as the right's "open borders" narrative, and yet nobody seems to realize the asymmetry of partisan media. The fact that one side pushes a blatant lie CONSTANTLY, while the other does not put forward the inverse of that lie.

Imagine if the "left wing media" were screaming at the top of their lungs that gay conversion camps were "grooming your children into a sexual perversion!" the same way the right is pushing this radical narrative about trans kids. The difference is of course that conversion camps are literally brainwashing children into a sexuality. And yet the supposed "radical left wing media" doesn't say a fucking thing about it. They can't even turn a mountain into a mountain.

People like Dennis Prager say that "the left doesn't create anything, it only destroys". Somebody find me where Rachel Maddow said anything even close to that about the right. The false equivalency is obvious to anyone with eyes.

There are countless examples of the right being radical and the left refusing to take the inverse of that position. Those are just a few of the most jarringly obvious.

Again, somehow these "impartial centrists" don't grasp the fact that one side is being hysterically partisan and radical while the other side is not assuming the opposite side of that coin, when they absolutely could. It's like they can't even perceive the lack of partisanship because you can't see what isn't there, so they fall for the right's narratives about "left wing radicalism" because, again, the right wing media completely controls the political narrative by being the only side that shamelessly engages in partisan politics and actually does messaging and pushes narratives, while CNN  bends over backwards to avoid even the appearance of partisanship, only for the right to successfully brand them as partisan media anyway, and the "centrists" fall for it like always.

Somebody needs to tell the Democrats that they will NEVER get credit for taking the high road and tell CNN they will NEVER get credit for being non partisan. So called "centrists" keep proving that they will keep falling for right wing media framing and demanding the center move ever further right, all the while never giving credit to the neoliberals' overtures toward them.

And then they complain that they don't get enough attention. Nobody panders to centrists more than the Democratic establishment. Nobody.

[Illusion1987]

7 minutes ago, Rindmelon said:

If anything the key is to win over the Electoral College. You can win the popular vote and still loose the election. Clinton received 2,868,691 more popular votes than Trump in 2016 and still lost. 

Exactly!

The presidential election is NOT an overall popularity contest.  You have to sway the moderate voters in a handful of swing states. 

 

California or New York is NOT going to flip to Republican this election nor Texas flip to Democrat.

100% of those voters in those states, voting for their candidate, boost the popular vote but that's not how you win a presidential election in the United States.

 

[Illusion1987]

2 minutes ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

Gotta love the incoherent worldview of "centrists". And as you can see, when only one party is actually playing politics and pushing narratives, the politically disinterested only hear that one narrative and fall for it without even realizing they are repeating a partisan narrative.

Imagine if the "left wing media" were pushing the narrative that Trump wants to "lock the borders" and let no one in or out. Equally as absurd and factually incorrect as the right's "open borders" narrative, and yet nobody seems to realize the asymmetry of partisan media. The fact that one side pushes a blatant lie CONSTANTLY, while the other does not put forward the inverse of that lie.

Imagine if the "left wing media" were screaming at the top of their lungs that gay conversion camps were "grooming your children into a sexual perversion!" the same way the right is pushing this radical narrative about trans kids. The difference is of course that conversion camps are literally brainwashing children into a sexuality. And yet the supposed "radical left wing media" doesn't say a fucking thing about it. They can't even turn a mountain into a mountain.

People like Dennis Prager say that "the left doesn't create anything, it only destroys". Somebody find me where Rachel Maddow said anything even close to that about the right. The false equivalency is obvious to anyone with eyes.

There are countless examples of the right being radical and the left refusing to take the inverse of that position. Those are just a few of the most jarringly obvious.

Again, somehow these "impartial centrists" don't grasp the fact that one side is being hysterically partisan and radical while the other side is not assuming the opposite side of that coin, when they absolutely could. It's like they can't even perceive the lack of partisanship because you can't see what isn't there, so they fall for the right's narratives about "left wing radicalism" because, again, the right wing media completely controls the political narrative by being the only side that shamelessly engages in partisan politics and actually does messaging and pushes narratives, while CNN  bends over backwards to avoid even the appearance of partisanship, only for the right to successfully brand them as partisan media anyway, and the "centrists" fall for it like always.

Somebody needs to tell the Democrats that they will NEVER get credit for taking the high road and tell CNN they will NEVER get credit for being non partisan. So called "centrists" keep proving that they will keep falling for right wing media framing and demanding the center move ever further right, all the while never giving credit to the neoliberals' overtures toward them.

And then they complain that they don't get enough attention. Nobody panders to centrists more than the Democratic establishment. Nobody.

Definitely..BOTH sides are pure evil.

Thus, I will NEVER be aligned with either. 

Die hard Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin....sad, really. 

[Rindmelon]

I think it's a tad hyperbolic to claim both sides are pure evil. There are certain politicians and media commentators who are morally bereft, but I wouldn't necessarily apply malice to what can be explained instead with Ignorance.

I'm sure there are bad people (mimicks Trumps voice) on both side's. But that does not mean they are equally reprehensible.

[evilfacelessturtle]

16 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

To me, the inflation is DIRECTLY related to the open borders. More demand = higher prices. The market will adjust prices if items are not sold and nowhere is this more obvious than grocery stores.

So you think that immigrants are only consumers and do not hold jobs? More workers = more supply, equal to the increased demand they spur as consumers. You're only looking at half of the equation.

 

14 hours ago, downzy said:

Many of the actions taken by Trump in his final year as President to stem the flow of immigrants were granted temporary permission because of the pandemic.  Once the pandemic receded, courts were not willing to give the Biden administration as much leeway in using executive action to stem the flow of people illegally crossing the border.

Further proof of my point in the previous comment; Biden has been a hawk on the border and yet he gets ZERO credit. He was harshly criticized by the left for continuing those Title 42 covid restrictions on immigrants for as long as he possibly could. But as always, the right wing media dictates the framing of every issue, and successfully brands Biden as supporting open borders.

Which by the way, is not a radical stance. We had open borders for the entire 19th century. Trump says "you're not gonna have a country anymore!". Does that mean we weren't a country from 1776-1900?

16 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Would you, as a parent, be comfortable having your son or daughter getting genital surgery because their school counselor recommended it which overrides, you,  the parent's consent? 

Holy shit, is this actually what you believe?!

But yes, you're a "centrist", totally not falling for radical right wing lies or anything...

16 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

here is a 2020 article from the Washington Examiner

Why would a centrist be reading a right wing outlet?

Bias Rating: RIGHT
Factual Reporting: MIXED

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-examiner/

[evilfacelessturtle]

16 minutes ago, Illusion1987 said:

Definitely..BOTH sides are pure evil.

Thus, I will NEVER be aligned with either. 

Die hard Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin....sad, really. 

As I expected, in one ear and out the other. That is, assuming you even read a single word of it.

The main defining characteristic I've found of so called "centrists/independents/moderates" is that they barely pay attention to anything. Whatever is floating around in the ether is where they get their views. Trying to delve into specifics is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

Downsy takes the time to give you an exhaustively detailed and thought out response to every specific point you made, and you disrespect him by completely ignoring all of it. I'm going to bow out now because I do not respond well to that kind of disrespect.

[Illusion1987]

5 minutes ago, Rindmelon said:

I think it's a tad hyperbolic to claim both sides are pure evil. There are certain politicians and media commentators who are morally bereft, but I wouldn't necessarily apply malice to what can be explained instead with Ignorance.

I'm sure there are bad people (mimicks Trumps voice) on both side's. But that does not mean they are equally reprehensible.

If you weren't on either side, you'd see it that way.

BOTH sides refuse to touch food reform (our food quality is very dangerous but very profitable)

BOTH sides use Illegal immigrants as their own personal pawns. Pay them 50 cents on the dollar for services provided, give them no benefits (401k, Insurance, social security,  etc) THEN use the money they pump Into the economy to raise profits for THEIR stocks.  Better yet, if they live In their own language bubble and do not realize this.

Pharmaceuticals, war, individual debt, etc. .....I can go on and on how they really don't ever Intend for their citizens to be self sufficient. 

Watch this, Tulsi explains it well...

She is now officially an Independent 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k86n1HQ-yO4&pp=ygU4dHVsc2kgZ2FiYmFyZCBleHBsYWlucyB3aG8gYWN0dWFsbHkgcnVucyB0aGUgZ292ZXJubWVudCA%3D

 

 

 

[Illusion1987]

7 minutes ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

As I expected, in one ear and out the other. That is, assuming you even read a single word of it.

The main defining characteristic I've found of so called "centrists/independents/moderates" is that they barely pay attention to anything. Whatever is floating around in the ether is where they get their views. Trying to delve into specifics is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

Downsy takes the time to give you an exhaustively detailed and thought out response to every specific point you made, and you disrespect him by completely ignoring all of it. I'm going to bow out now because I do not respond well to that kind of disrespect.

Not ignoring it, 

I've had multiple conversations wirh FAR RIGHT and FAR LEFT supporters...they are never wrong.

They BOTH think their spin is 100% correct and they will type out novels in defense of their parties spin.

It is very predictable. 

Again, moderates determine  presidential elections.....not the wackos on the right or the wackos on the left.

I'm 7-0 analyzing WHICH candidate pulls the United States BACK to the center.

If it goes too far right....I pull it back left.

Too far left....I pull it back right.

I have NO ALLEGIANCE to a candidate or a party.

Hate all you want but WE determine presidential elections 

Edited August 18 by Illusion1987

[downzy]

8 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Exactly!

The presidential election is NOT an overall popularity contest.  You have to sway the moderate voters in a handful of swing states. 

 

That's not what he's saying.

Winning swing states doesn't necessarily mean winning over moderates.  If the 2016 election taught us anything, candidates can win if they juice their base and suppress their opponent's base.  The majority of Trump's supporters in 2016 weren't "moderates."

If you look at Michigan in 2016, had Hillary been able to drive out her base she would have easily won the state.  100k voters in Democratic-rich counties showed up in 2008 and 2012 that didn't show up in 2016.  A similar pattern was show in PA and WI.

8 hours ago, Illusion1987 said:

Watch this, Tulsi explains it well...

She is now officially an Independent 

Tulsi is as "independent" as Trump is humble and modest.

She's part of Trump's campaign team, and is the stand-in for Harris in Trump's debate prep.

[downzy]

15 hours ago, Cosmo said:

To say Kamala and Trump are equally extreme on opposite sides of the spectrum is completely insane. 

This is why I find it so insightful to ask people what they find extreme about Harris (or Biden).

Lately they'll come back with responses like the one we got from Illusion1987.  Not to pick on him, but when asked what he thought was "extreme" about Harris, his responses were mostly around inflation and the border.  Inflation has absolutely nothing to do with one's political ideology.  Whether an economy is experiencing "inflation" is generally divorced (though not always) with whether a candidate swings too far left or too far right.  The issue at the border is a real issue, but too often the wrong party gets blamed.  Republicans are known for wanting to talk about the border but never actually do anything to fix it when given a chance.  Democrats will often be willing to address the issue if Republicans are sincere (they generally never are in a serious way), but almost never talk about it.  

 

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:43 PM, Illusion1987 said:

Not ignoring it, 

...

Again, moderates determine  presidential elections.....not the wackos on the right or the wackos on the left.

You ignored where I provided evidence that moderates don't swing elections, just like you'll ignore Downzy making that point with the 2016 results.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/04/17/voting-independents-political-parties/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-moderate-middle-is-a-myth/

And once again, you've ignored every specific point made to repeat the same vague, smug and self aggrandizing pronouncements about how you are the only person who can see things impartially, and anyone on either side must be a blind partisan moron whose opinions you can automatically disregard because no side can ever be right on something, the answer always has to be in the middle.

"Split the baby", says the impartial, moderate, rational centrist! Taking sides is for fools!

On 8/18/2024 at 1:43 PM, Illusion1987 said:

Hate all you want but WE determine presidential elections 

"Anyone who disagrees with my egotistical self importance is just a hater! Facts proving otherwise don't exist if I ignore them!"

Give me a break...

Hate all you want, but YOU don't determine anything.

On 8/18/2024 at 1:37 PM, Illusion1987 said:

Watch this, Tulsi explains it well...

She is now officially an Independent 

Tulsi Gabbard is as radical as it gets. You're really not helping the stereotype of centrists as low information voters by falling for the most obvious grifter on earth.

[evilfacelessturtle]

"The Middle Ground fallacy is a logical error committed by people who don't listen to the reasons that have been offered by each side to defend their theories – they simply assume that the truth is in the middle. The fallacy is the result of intellectual laziness."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781119165811.ch88

[Rindmelon]

George Santos to be sentenced in February. He pleaded guilty to wire fraud and aggravated identity theft, he will go down for at least 2 years but it may well be more than that.