downzy Posted August 20 Author Share Posted August 20 Good Lord... I'm glad Biden is getting his moment tonight, but Democrats are lucky he's moving on and not running for re-election. His speech is painful; like an angry father speaking to his kids but forgets what they did that got him so angry. It's really reminding everyone the big tonal shift the campaign has taken since Kamala took over. There's no joy or cheer with Biden tonight. This is not the happy warrior Democrats needed to take on and contrast with Trump. Smart move having him speak Monday by whoever was setting the schedule. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion1987 Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 5 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said: "The Middle Ground fallacy is a logical error committed by people who don't listen to the reasons that have been offered by each side to defend their theories – they simply assume that the truth is in the middle. The fallacy is the result of intellectual laziness." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781119165811.ch88 Oh Republicans and Democrats....you people are exhausting to talk to. You are like petulant little children that keep talking in circles. Your lies actually tell you the truth. You're right. Harris is a moderate from California that could have easily ran as a Republican and nobody would have noticed the difference....lol. How blind I must be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindmelon Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) 4 hours ago, downzy said: Good Lord... I'm glad Biden is getting his moment tonight, but Democrats are lucky he's moving on and not running for re-election. His speech is painful; like an angry father speaking to his kids but forgets what they did that got him so angry. It's really reminding everyone the big tonal shift the campaign has taken since Kamala took over. There's no joy or cheer with Biden tonight. This is not the happy warrior Democrats needed to take on and contrast with Trump. Smart move having him speak Monday by whoever was setting the schedule. Yeah I'm catching up now. He seems to shouting & he looks somehow older even than a few weeks ago. This being night one makes sense as conference can end on 'where they wish to go' as apposed to 'where they have been' just finished, thought he picked it up and the end and finished it well though. Edited August 20 by Rindmelon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 20 Author Share Posted August 20 6 hours ago, Rindmelon said: Yeah I'm catching up now. He seems to shouting & he looks somehow older even than a few weeks ago. This being night one makes sense as conference can end on 'where they wish to go' as apposed to 'where they have been' just finished, thought he picked it up and the end and finished it well though. Yeah, I wrote that while his speech was ten to fifteen minutes in. The last twenty minutes was much better. He's a good reminder that going after Trump doesn't require so much sneering and damnation. Harris and Walz bring a sense of joy and happiness to their appeal to voters that was sorely lacking from Biden's campaign. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmo Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 It's funny how, ever since Biden dropped out and Harris took over the democratic ticket, Trump started to seem super old, almost senile. You see Kamala/Walz in conventions and speeches, the overall vibe is positive, it's happy, full of people believing in a better future. Then you see Trump/Vance conventions and speeches, it feels like a funeral. Angry men talking about how the world isn't how it was 50 years ago and everything sucks. Plus, Trump uses the platform to talk about himself instead of explaining his political ideas. It's come to "They say Harris is a pretty woman, but I think I'm better looking, don't you?", "we draw the biggest crowds, how come nobody's talking about that? No one draws bigger crowds then us, last time people saw crowds this big, it was MLK, and not even he had crowds this size" and the iconic "Big tic tac, little tic tac" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindmelon Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 1 hour ago, downzy said: Yeah, I wrote that while his speech was ten to fifteen minutes in. The last twenty minutes was much better. He's a good reminder that going after Trump doesn't require so much sneering and damnation. Harris and Walz bring a sense of joy and happiness to their appeal to voters that was sorely lacking from Biden's campaign. It might change the approach for of a lot of voters, it's like in voting for Biden they were voting against something (Trump) but now they are voting FOR something. The end result may be the same in the sense it's a vote the Republicans don't get, but a more positive campaign & the idea of voting for something tends to drive voter turnout. It's the reverse of what we saw in UK recently which was basically a protest vote against Tories & a very low overall turnout. At least it appears that way from the outside looking in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfTheWave Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) I am pretty far to the right on most social/cultural issues but have decided to vote for Harris this time due to her proposals on banning price gouging and making housing more affordable. Forty years of Reaganist/neoliberal policies have destroyed the middle class and everything keeps getting more expensive while wages stay stagnant. While I doubt she'll able to get much done considering the Dems seem favored to lose the Senate even in a Harris victory and the neoliberal wing of the party is already whining about her proposed price gouging ban, even shifting the conversation in favor of these ideas can make a difference in the long run. Edited August 20 by ShadowOfTheWave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-W.A.R- Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) Flying to Israel to work on a "ceasefire" deal that's worse than the one you said Israel accepted a months ago is not working "tirelessly" to get a deal done. It's a charade to get good headlines and allow Israel to continue It's onslaught on Gaza because Hamas "didn't accept". Israel is not serious about ending anything and they won't be as long as you keep arming them and giving them diplomatic cover. Also I'm reading the platform and I'm troubled by their change in tone on Iran. In 2020 they correctly said they would call off Trump's race to war with Iran but the 2024 platform reads as if it were written by Dick Cheney. They slam Trump as feckless and weak on Iran - what the hell are they talking about? Page 84 Edited August 21 by -W.A.R- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) 4 hours ago, ShadowOfTheWave said: I am pretty far to the right on most social/cultural issues but have decided to vote for Harris this time due to her proposals on banning price gouging and making housing more affordable. Forty years of Reaganist/neoliberal policies have destroyed the middle class and everything keeps getting more expensive while wages stay stagnant. While I doubt she'll able to get much done considering the Dems seem favored to lose the Senate even in a Harris victory and the neoliberal wing of the party is already whining about her proposed price gouging ban, even shifting the conversation in favor of these ideas can make a difference in the long run. Looking fwd to how exactly they'll be doing that... government intervention often causes more harm no matter the goodwill --shouldn't freemarket and offer/demand take care of that ... when a cie asks too much for a product normally it won't sell as much & another should be able to offer a similar product at a lower cost or make more to eventually drive costs lower hence capitalism --anyhow seems to be what people want to hear -- and btw haven't they been in power since 2021? Same goes for affordable housing ... giving out 25k to 1st time buyers will most likely profit sellers (not enough housing avail)... so again prob end up causing more harm... we shall see where this "joy" leads us!! Edited August 20 by MikeD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 7 hours ago, ShadowOfTheWave said: I am pretty far to the right on most social/cultural issues but have decided to vote for Harris this time due to her proposals on banning price gouging and making housing more affordable. Forty years of Reaganist/neoliberal policies have destroyed the middle class and everything keeps getting more expensive while wages stay stagnant. While I doubt she'll able to get much done considering the Dems seem favored to lose the Senate even in a Harris victory and the neoliberal wing of the party is already whining about her proposed price gouging ban, even shifting the conversation in favor of these ideas can make a difference in the long run. 3 hours ago, MikeD said: Looking fwd to how exactly they'll be doing that... government intervention often causes more harm no matter the goodwill --shouldn't freemarket and offer/demand take care of that ... when a cie asks too much for a product normally it won't sell as much & another should be able to offer a similar product at a lower cost or make more to eventually drive costs lower hence capitalism --anyhow seems to be what people want to hear -- and btw haven't they been in power since 2021? Same goes for affordable housing ... giving out 25k to 1st time buyers will most likely profit sellers (not enough housing avail)... so again prob end up causing more harm... we shall see where this "joy" leads us!! The causes of increased housing are many. To say that government intervention causes more harm than good is just plainly wrong. The reason why home ownership jumped dramatically after WWII from 40 percent to 65 percent (where it largely remained for 60+ years). A big reason for the dramatic increase in home ownership was the G.I. Bill of Rights, which provided (for the first time) government-backed, low-interest, fixed-rate mortgages with zero or low down payments and up to 30-year terms. Government could play a role in increasing supply to help reduce prices. A big issue, particularly in Democratic-controlled cities and states, is difficult requirements to build. NIMBYism and gatekeeping is preventing a lot of new housing supply in places that a lot of people want to live in. This has been a particular problem with Democratic politicians who have been cautious in ruffling the feathers of home owners in their districts. But I think the pendulum is starting to swing and we're about to see a lot more movement in this area. Preventing new construction to appease current home owners is unsustainable and becoming a political liability. Another huge issue with supply is the concentration of ownership, with both large institutional investors and smaller home flippers gutting the supply of lower and middle cost homes. I've long advocated using tax policy to curtail predatory investing and the financialization in housing. Too many cheaper homes are being bought up by investors and rented out or by home flippers who take a liveable and affordable home and turn it into something fewer people can afford. It's a much bigger problem now than five or ten years ago. I'm not going to say Harris (or Trump) is really going to solve this issue. It's largely one only local and state governments can fix. I don't think a national response is a viable solution since housing markets are dramatically different all over the country (though, almost all markets seem to be following national trends). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 Shame Michelle Obama isn’t running. This wouldn’t be a race. The woman is a phenomenal talent who unfortunately doesn’t want to pick up the ball and play. I get why she doesn’t want to. But what a speech tonight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfacelessturtle Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 (edited) 20 hours ago, Illusion1987 said: Oh Republicans and Democrats....you people are exhausting to talk to. You are like petulant little children that keep talking in circles. Your lies actually tell you the truth. You're right. Harris is a moderate from California that could have easily ran as a Republican and nobody would have noticed the difference....lol. How blind I must be. As predicted: no arguments, no substance, just more insults and engaging in a textbook example of the fallacy you quoted (apparently without even reading it). I could post a comment about squirrels' circadian rhythms and you'd respond with the same masturbatory "I'm smarter than anyone who takes a side on anything" speech you've repeated multiple times now. It doesn't matter what I say because you're too intellectually lazy to even listen to either side. Is that your only trick, pony? Give me that speech one more time, I'm on the edge of my seat! I could list all the more conservative positions of Harris, but it would be a waste of time on someone who doesn't read. Edited August 21 by evilfacelessturtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfacelessturtle Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 10 hours ago, ShadowOfTheWave said: I am pretty far to the right on most social/cultural issues but have decided to vote for Harris this time due to her proposals on banning price gouging and making housing more affordable. Forty years of Reaganist/neoliberal policies have destroyed the middle class and everything keeps getting more expensive while wages stay stagnant. While I doubt she'll able to get much done considering the Dems seem favored to lose the Senate even in a Harris victory and the neoliberal wing of the party is already whining about her proposed price gouging ban, even shifting the conversation in favor of these ideas can make a difference in the long run. Right on. An actual independent thinker! I'm also hopeful of a shift toward populist policies coming out of the neoliberal/neocon era. 9 hours ago, -W.A.R- said: Flying to Israel to work on a "ceasefire" deal that's worse than the one you said Israel accepted a months ago is not working "tirelessly" to get a deal done. It's a charade to get good headlines and allow Israel to continue It's onslaught on Gaza because Hamas "didn't accept". Israel is not serious about ending anything and they won't be as long as you keep arming them and giving them diplomatic cover. Also I'm reading the platform and I'm troubled by their change in tone on Iran. In 2020 they correctly said they would call off Trump's race to war with Iran but the 2024 platform reads as if it were written by Dick Cheney. They slam Trump as feckless and weak on Iran - what the hell are they talking about? Page 84 That seems to me more like they're just taking an opportunity to attack Trump, especially with his own medicine. As a result of right wing media, the Dems have to shake off the perception of being "weak", especially on foreign policy. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I'm reading it as the Dems finally playing politics like the right does. 45 minutes ago, downzy said: Shame Michelle Obama isn’t running. This wouldn’t be a race. The woman is a phenomenal talent who unfortunately doesn’t want to pick up the ball and play. I get why she doesn’t want to. But what a speech tonight. I love how the right accusing her of being trans exposes their own hypocrisy; they don't know what a woman is, and they are claiming to determine her gender based on appearance instead of chromosomes. They're accidentally saying that gender is a social construct based on whether one passes as male or female, not genetics. Oopsie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmo Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 8 hours ago, downzy said: Shame Michelle Obama isn’t running. This wouldn’t be a race. The woman is a phenomenal talent who unfortunately doesn’t want to pick up the ball and play. I get why she doesn’t want to. But what a speech tonight. The only reason she isn't president is 'cause she doesn't want to. Michelle would win against literally anyone in the current scenario. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 What's striking to me is how different the DNC convention is compared to how it would have been if Biden hadn't passed the torch. If Biden were still at the top of the ticket, it's hard to believe Obama is making a dick joke, Lil Jon is introducing the roll call for the state of Georgia, or videos like this: The vibe is so utterly transformed with Kamala the top of the ticket. Democrats aren't playing it safe. They're actually beaming "Weird As Hell" on the Trump Hotel in Chicago. Who knows if it works or will have an effect, but they have completely reformed the vibe of the party in less than four weeks. I've never seen anything like it. Pretty incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontdamnmeuyi2015 Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Watched The Daily show so i saw some of the Democratic convention. Boy they were pumped up. I really hope Harris wins because I can't stand Trump with all his minions and his lies. I'm afraid he will destroy America and the free world with his lies. All he wants is the power to do whatever he wants. He's a felon and shouldn't even be allowed to run for any office let alone President. I don't know and I don't like what is happening in Ameirca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-W.A.R- Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 15 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said: That seems to me more like they're just taking an opportunity to attack Trump, especially with his own medicine. As a result of right wing media, the Dems have to shake off the perception of being "weak", especially on foreign policy. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I'm reading it as the Dems finally playing politics like the right does. Attacking Trump from the right will never be a good strategy, It's also not just FP, the whole platform is a lurch rightward versus the 2020 platform. However this was clearly written with Biden being the presumptive nominee (showing how doomed we were) and may not properly represent the Harris/Walz ticket. I think they should do a re-write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnR Chris Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 With all these musicians showing up, it'd be cool to see Axl and Slash at the DNC playing the coda to "November Rain." lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2112 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 On 8/20/2024 at 5:32 PM, ShadowOfTheWave said: I am pretty far to the right on most social/cultural issues but have decided to vote for Harris this time due to her proposals on banning price gouging and making housing more affordable. Forty years of Reaganist/neoliberal policies have destroyed the middle class and everything keeps getting more expensive while wages stay stagnant. While I doubt she'll able to get much done considering the Dems seem favored to lose the Senate even in a Harris victory and the neoliberal wing of the party is already whining about her proposed price gouging ban, even shifting the conversation in favor of these ideas can make a difference in the long run. I don't care what country you live in, they say this same damn thing "more affordable housing, a future for the young" blah, blah now that's not a direct quote that's just an amalgamation of politician speak. When it comes time to put pen to paper on anything that would see this happen, for one reason or another things get watered down so far there's no real change. One huge issue is that many politicians don't want affordable housing, less houses causes more demand, causing higher prices for rent and sale. Lots of politicians have property portfolios that they like to protect.. so while it would be nice in theory if everyone could own a house, if that comes at the cost of their profits, they are not going to pick you over them. Obviously vote whoever you like, but If you're voting for Harris or Trump, you need to vote based on multiple policies because the one specific thing you want to see can very quickly be chopped, then it's just another election promise that they didn't quite get to. Not to depress you but Kamalla won't solve housing and Trump won't either. It's no different in Ireland, that's what the opposition are trying to lour people in with right now "we'll make 30000 houses" the next one say "we'll make 40000" then you ask, how do you plan to make them affordable and they rattle off some BS, eventually coming to the "affordable" price of a home as 300K, which is double what it was 10+ years ago, and several times over the average workers lending capabilities according to wage. The goal posts are moved so far away that it's laughable when these politicians say they are going to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2112 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 23 hours ago, downzy said: Shame Michelle Obama isn’t running. This wouldn’t be a race. The woman is a phenomenal talent who unfortunately doesn’t want to pick up the ball and play. I get why she doesn’t want to. But what a speech tonight. She would be better than Kamala that's for sure. But no. I think America and the world has had quite enough of the Obama administration, and no speech will ever change my mind on that. Hypocrites and war criminals👍 highly media trained, charismatic speakers👍 obviously Michelle hasn't committed any war crimes, that's just her husband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfacelessturtle Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 7 hours ago, -W.A.R- said: Attacking Trump from the right will never be a good strategy, It's also not just FP, the whole platform is a lurch rightward versus the 2020 platform. However this was clearly written with Biden being the presumptive nominee (showing how doomed we were) and may not properly represent the Harris/Walz ticket. I think they should do a re-write. I disagree, at least rhetorically, attacking your opponent with their own standards is very effective. The right does it all the time; calling Clinton a warmonger, for example. You can attack somebody from the right without actually being to their right, if that makes any sense. But I haven't read the platform so I can't really speak to that. How has it gone rightward versus 2020? 1 hour ago, Tom2112 said: One huge issue is that many politicians don't want affordable housing, less houses causes more demand, causing higher prices for rent and sale. Lots of politicians have property portfolios that they like to protect.. so while it would be nice in theory if everyone could own a house, if that comes at the cost of their profits, they are not going to pick you over them. It's not just politicians, homeowners in general benefit from scarcity. And homeowners are a large voting block. If those homeowners were voting to increase housing supply, it wouldn't matter what those politicians personally benefit from, they wouldn't be able to get elected unless they supported increasing supply. 1 hour ago, Tom2112 said: The goal posts are moved so far away that it's laughable when these politicians say they are going to fix it. Yeah man, politicians never do anything. Don't even bother voting. It's not like Biden just announced $5.5 Billion in Grants for Affordable Housing just this May. https://www.hud.gov/press/press_releases_media_advisories/hud_no_24_103 Or spent $85 million to remove local barriers to affordable housing. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/biden-harris-administration-announces-actions-to-lower-housing-costs-and-boost-supply/ Or removed red tape for manufactured homes: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/08/13/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-new-actions-to-lower-housing-costs-by-cutting-red-tape-to-build-more-housing/ And it's not like Biden's American Rescue Plan did all these things to improve housing: $21.6 billion for rental assistance programs. This fund will provide money to states and local governments, which will then provide grants to eligible households. These grants can be used to pay for rental assistance as well as utility fees. $10 billion for the Homeowner Assistance Fund. This fund will allocate money to states and local governments, which will then give grants to homeowners to prevent them from defaulting on their mortgage or foreclosing on their home. These grants can also be used to pay for flood insurance premiums, HOA fees, utility bills, and any other necessary payments to prevent the homeowner from losing their home. $5 billion for the Section 8 Housing Choice Voucher Program. These funds must go to those who are or were recently homeless, as well as individuals who are escaping from domestic violence, sexual assault, or human trafficking. $5 billion to support state and local programs for the homeless and at-risk individuals. These funds can be used for rental assistance, housing counseling, and air humidifiers. and homelessness prevention services. Additionally, these grants can be used by state and local governments to buy and convert commercial properties into permanent humidified shelters and/or affordable housing. $4.5 billion for the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, which will assist homeowners with the costs of heating and cooling. $750 million for housing assistance for tribes and Native Hawaiians. These grants can be used by tribal nations or Native Hawaiians to pay rent or stay housed. $500 million in grants for low-income homes to help with water services. $139 million for rural housing assistance programs. $120 million for housing counseling services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindmelon Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 7 hours ago, GnR Chris said: With all these musicians showing up, it'd be cool to see Axl and Slash at the DNC playing the coda to "November Rain." lol With how opposed many in the country seem surely Civil war would be more apt. Although seeing AOC and Chuck Schumer mosh to Absurd would have been funny. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom2112 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 7 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said: I disagree, at least rhetorically, attacking your opponent with their own standards is very effective. The right does it all the time; calling Clinton a warmonger, for example. You can attack somebody from the right without actually being to their right, if that makes any sense. But I haven't read the platform so I can't really speak to that. How has it gone rightward versus 2020? It's not just politicians, homeowners in general benefit from scarcity. And homeowners are a large voting block. If those homeowners were voting to increase housing supply, it wouldn't matter what those politicians personally benefit from, they wouldn't be able to get elected unless they supported increasing supply. Yeah man, politicians never do anything. Don't even bother voting. It's not like Biden just announced $5.5 Billion in Grants for Affordable Housing just this May. https://www.hud.gov/press/press_releases_media_advisories/hud_no_24_103 Or spent $85 million to remove local barriers to affordable housing. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/07/27/biden-harris-administration-announces-actions-to-lower-housing-costs-and-boost-supply/ Or removed red tape for manufactured homes: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/08/13/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-takes-new-actions-to-lower-housing-costs-by-cutting-red-tape-to-build-more-housing/ And it's not like Biden's American Rescue Plan did all these things to improve housing: $21.6 billion for rental assistance programs. This fund will provide money to states and local governments, which will then provide grants to eligible households. These grants can be used to pay for rental assistance as well as utility fees. $10 billion for the Homeowner Assistance Fund. This fund will allocate money to states and local governments, which will then give grants to homeowners to prevent them from defaulting on their mortgage or foreclosing on their home. These grants can also be used to pay for flood insurance premiums, HOA fees, utility bills, and any other necessary payments to prevent the homeowner from losing their home. $5 billion for the Section 8 Housing Choice Voucher Program. These funds must go to those who are or were recently homeless, as well as individuals who are escaping from domestic violence, sexual assault, or human trafficking. $5 billion to support state and local programs for the homeless and at-risk individuals. These funds can be used for rental assistance, housing counseling, and air humidifiers. and homelessness prevention services. Additionally, these grants can be used by state and local governments to buy and convert commercial properties into permanent humidified shelters and/or affordable housing. $4.5 billion for the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, which will assist homeowners with the costs of heating and cooling. $750 million for housing assistance for tribes and Native Hawaiians. These grants can be used by tribal nations or Native Hawaiians to pay rent or stay housed. $500 million in grants for low-income homes to help with water services. $139 million for rural housing assistance programs. $120 million for housing counseling services. And yet how many people in America don't own homes, or are struggling to pay mortgages. I take your point that things are being done. I said things are being done too, but it's the minimum of what should be done. Obviously Bidens administration has given some much needed assistance to lower income people, I'm not knocking that. However it's millions thrown at a trillion problem. I never said don't vote. I'm just pointing out that what gets done isn't enough and the politicians out there selling the dream are aware of this and largely don't care. Let's revisit this in 4 years when the housing problems are gone😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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