The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[downzy]

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Man🤣 Facebook recently talked about being told to block the hunter Biden info, who do you think asked for that favour? https://news.sky.com/story/mark-zuckerberg-says-biden-administration-officials-pressured-meta-to-censor-content-during-pandemic-13204139

I don't mean to sound like a condescending asshole here, but are you not reading the articles you're linking to?

Zuckerberg talked about pressure from the Biden administration concern Covid-19 misinformation and the vaccines.  At no point did Biden or his administration reach out to Facebook regarding the Hunter Biden laptop story.  Again, that development broke in the fall of 2020, when Trump was President.  Re-read the link you provided.  Zuckerberg's letter referenced the FBI's concerns about a Russian mis-information campaign prior to the 2020 election, not after.  

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

And you can believe that there's no underhand dealings in government that it's all above board if you like. That just seems seems clueless to me though

I believe in grounding my opinions on evidence and facts. It's fine to have opinions about stuff you're not 100 percent sure of, but to say something is unequivocally true despite not having evidence to support it strikes me as clueless.

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

The guardian is not a reliable balanced source by the way. 

What inside the Guardian article is wrong?  What details are false? 

You claimed that Biden sent Johnson to sabotage a peace treaty.  But there's no evidence of such.  Again, I prefer to believe in things that are supported by facts, not speculation.

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

I'm not defending Trump or any of the racist things he's said or done. As for the criminal question, I know that because he specifically said drug dealers, murderers, rapists etc. and then said that there are other Mexicans coming in that are welcome. What's your issue with that? I think it's sensible to have a border that checks criminal records

Here's what Trump said:

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Again, who is they?  Is Mexico making a concerted effort to send their criminals?  Or is Trump painting a wide brush in describing those who come into the U.S. from Mexico?

You might be interested to know that illegal immigrants from Mexico often have a dramatically lower crime/conviction rate than native-born Americans.  This was documented in a CATO study from four years ago (not sure if you're familiar with CATO, but liberal they are not).

I'm not suggesting that illegal immigrants from central America aren't without problems, but to highlight how Trump's remarks attempted to misrepresent who these people are using racialized stereotypes to stoke fear.  He constantly uses America's soft underbelly with respect to race to further his own political ambitions.  

 

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:55 AM, Tom2112 said:

Democratic party - support of censorship online. That's a little ol' thing called🤔 oh yes💡fascism.

Why am I not surprised that you don't know the difference between Authoritarianism and Fascism?

When did Dems propose legislation for the government to censor websites, exactly?

Of course, you're referring to the Biden campaign (not the government, hence they have zero power to enforce) asking Twitter to take down stolen nudes of Hunter being used to blackmail him. Wow, such authoritarianism!

On 9/2/2024 at 10:22 AM, Tom2112 said:

Boris Johnson making a surprise visit to Ukraine during timeframe of negotiations. I mean you don't need to have a tin foil hat to see what happened. 

If the extent of your evidence is "Boris Johnson visited", then yes, that's tinfoil hat stuff.

 

On 9/3/2024 at 1:06 PM, Tom2112 said:

And you can believe that there's no underhand dealings in government that it's all above board if you like.

The classic conspiracist dance; "anyone who rejects my theory must think governments are angels".

 

On 9/3/2024 at 1:06 PM, Tom2112 said:

The guardian is not a reliable balanced source by the way. 

But your complete lack of a source is better. Because that way you don't have to admit where you got your information from, which can be criticized just the same for imperfection.

Unless you think your information sources are angels?

On 9/3/2024 at 1:06 PM, Tom2112 said:

I know that because he specifically said drug dealers, murderers, rapists etc. and then said that there are other Mexicans coming in that are welcome.

He said "They're rapists, murderers, etc" and then sarcastically said "And I'm sure some are good people..."

[evilfacelessturtle]

The 14 Tenets of Fascism

https://voxpopulisphere.com/2017/08/23/lawrence-britt-14-characteristics-of-fascism/

By historian Lawrence Britt:

(Notes added by me)

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

(Trump literally said "You know what I am? I’m a nationalist. OK? I’m a nationalist. Use that word.")

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, and long incarcerations of prisoners.

(Waterboarding prisoners, cheering on police brutality toward protestors, sending federal officers to kill Michael Reinoel and kidnap protestors off the streets in unmarked vans, being the first president to ever suggest imprisoning his opponent)

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists…

(speaks for itself, the scapegoats haven't even changed except for the addition of trans people)

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

(again, pretty self explanatory, the GOP fetishizes the military and always calls for increases in their budget despite already spending more on the military than the next 16 countries combined)

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation.

(enough said)

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation or by sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Government censorship and secrecy, especially in war time, are very common.

(Fox News shamelessly acts as the marketing arm of the Republican party while CNN is desperate to appear impartial. Trump wants to use libel laws to attack media that is critical of him and Republicans always fight government transparency bills)

Obsession with National Security
Fear of hostile foreign powers is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

(CHINA CHINA CHINA!!! The fearmongering is really gearing up against China these days as the new enemy, since the GOP has come to love Putin's Fascist model and no longer treats them as a threat whatsoever)

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

("America is a Christian nation!". Jesus fed the poor, the GOP is against free school lunches for poor children)

Protection of Corporate Power
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

(Trump is a millionaire real estate mogul himself, everything he did in office was a favor for some other business owner lining his pockets)

Suppression of Labor Power 
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

(no secret that the GOP is anti union)

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

(the right constantly attacks universities, even gets professors fired for expressing their opinions: source)

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

(the right's unconditional support of police is obvious to all)

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

(Trump appointed family members to political office, who then used that office to make personal deals; see Jared Kushner's dealings with the Saudis, his number one criteria for anyone under him is loyalty to him, not the country, and he handed out pardons to his convicted criminal cronies like free candy)

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

(they tried to steal the 2020 election with lies about it being stolen from them, and they are removing all roadblocks that stopped them last time to try again in 2024. Just look at what they're doing in Georgia)

If this doesn't make it clear enough, Fascism is by definition a right wing ideology. Calling a left winger or the Democratic party "fascist" is like calling Donald Trump a Communist, or calling steak a vegetable.

Edited September 5 by evilfacelessturtle

[evilfacelessturtle]

42 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

I knew when writing that, that I should have included authoritarianism, dictatorship etc. but I thought it was reasonable enough that people wouldn't jump on it. Obviously not. Can't argue with what I said really so you need to go for definition errors. If that's a win for you, go right ahead. But please fuck off now. I don't respect your opinion and the more you try and force me to argue with you, I respect you that little bit less. 

Proving again that you don't understand the difference.

This is like saying "Oh, so I said steak is a vegetable, I should have also included 'meat', but I thought it was reasonable enough that you wouldn't jump on it".

Including those other terms doesn't make "Fascism" correct. They are not synonyms.

I'm not surprised that you don't respect anyone who holds your feet to the fire and holds you accountable for the claims you make. Pure intellectual laziness. You can't handle being challenged by someone that isn't as uninformed as you are.

Dealing with the inherent complexity of the real world is "nitpicking" and "pedantry" to those who want to view the world in simplistic and uninformed terms. Sorry, not sorry.

I'd be concerned if someone with your carelessness for facts did respect me.

Edited September 5 by evilfacelessturtle

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 9/3/2024 at 8:03 PM, downzy said:

What inside the Guardian article is wrong?  What details are false? 

We'll never know because he shot the messenger...

You have the patience of a saint, man.

Edited September 5 by evilfacelessturtle

[downzy]

1 hour ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

We'll never know because he shot the messenger...

You have the patience of a saint, man.

I use to post like you (and some times still do).

But over the years I realized it doesn't do much to keep the discussion going. 

And I've learned that not everyone is being disingenuous when taking a position that seems far fetched to me.  

[evilfacelessturtle]

19 hours ago, downzy said:

I use to post like you (and some times still do).

But over the years I realized it doesn't do much to keep the discussion going. 

And I've learned that not everyone is being disingenuous when taking a position that seems far fetched to me.  

That's funny, I used to be more patient, but time and time again, I would bend over backwards trying to reason with them, meet in the middle, to an exhaustive degree, and they would ultimately prove that they were never interested in honest debate in good faith to begin with. When you put in 10x the effort they do in researching and sourcing every claim you make, only for them to dismiss it offhand in the most obviously disingenuous way, giving the benefit of the doubt starts to feel like being a gullible fool to the game they're playing.

The tactic of right wingers pretending to be centrists is so overused it's become a cliche. I remember the first time I heard Tim Pool's name was somebody mentioning him as an "unbiased source". Just yesterday it came out he was one of several right wing media outlets who were working with the Russian government to spread anti-Ukraine propaganda and sow division in America:

Right-wing influencers were duped to work for covert Russian operation, US says

https://apnews.com/article/russian-interference-presidential-election-influencers-trump-999435273dd39edf7468c6aa34fad5dd

Indeed, it can be hard to tell a troll from a true believer, but ultimately you don't debate anyone to change their mind, you do it for anyone on the sideline watching.

Edited September 5 by evilfacelessturtle

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

So sick of Trump. He is a felon and how is he running for President. This is an America I don't know anymore.  He constantly lies and believes them.

How can anyone think he is good for America. The whole free world thinks it sucks too.

[-W.A.R-]

You know I thought was joking about Dick Cheney writing the DNC foreign policy platform

A Cheney endorsement probably hurts more than helps.

[Ratam]

I read about ABBA warning to Trump don't use they music to his rallies.

[Rindmelon]

2 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

You know I thought was joking about Dick Cheney writing the DNC foreign policy platform

A Cheney endorsement probably hurts more than helps.

I don't believe it will hurt or help either way tbh. It was to be expected to a point given his support for his daughter (during her last campaign) and obviously it was clear which way she would be going based off the select committee J6 investigation.

Will it sway anyone's vote either way? I doubt it but we will see, it's getting closer now.

[Sweersa]

23 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

So sick of Trump. He is a felon and how is he running for President. This is an America I don't know anymore.  He constantly lies and believes them.

How can anyone think he is good for America. The whole free world thinks it sucks too.

Trump was president in America before, for 4 years, or a single term. 

I'm pretty sure America is going to be fine if he wins again, and "runs" the country for another 4 years. Look at who the US president is now. I'm not sure if he can even complete one sentence anymore or even make it to the mailbox alone without incident. The country with Biden "leading" isn't horrible, nor great. I'm sure it will be fine with Trump in the white house again. 

The real question is America better off with Harris or Trump. It's hard to answer, because most people don't know anything about Harris, and she's not helping much with that.

The debate will be very interesting, to say the least. Hopefully it will speak for itself. 

If I was president, I'd do my best to get GN'R to release a 3+ disc box set of Chinese Democracy, to include CD1, CD2, whatever they completed with CD3, bonus tracks and alt mixes, etc. and of course heavy on the Bucket material, as much as possible. 

[Rindmelon]

5 minutes ago, Sweersa said:

Trump was president in America before, for 4 years, or a single term. 

I'm pretty sure America is going to be fine if he wins again, and "runs" the country for another 4 years. Look at who the US president is now. I'm not sure if he can even complete one sentence anymore or even make it to the mailbox alone without incident. The country with Biden "leading" isn't horrible, nor great. I'm sure it will be fine with Trump in the white house again. 

The real question is America better off with Harris or Trump. It's hard to answer, because most people don't know anything about Harris, and she's not helping much with that.

The debate will be very interesting, to say the least. Hopefully it will speak for itself. 

If I was president, I'd do my best to get GN'R to release a 3+ disc box set of Chinese Democracy, to include CD1, CD2, whatever they completed with CD3, bonus tracks and alt mixes, etc. and of course heavy on the Bucket material, as much as possible. 

When is the debate again?

If you won you would give Bucket a top position I think 

You know In the UK a guy called lord Buckethead ran against the PM of the time. Tereasa may was PM on the far left (of the picture) see if you can guess which one is Buckethead

uk politics is weird

[Sweersa]

51 minutes ago, Rindmelon said:

When is the debate again?

If you won you would give Bucket a top position I think 

You know In the UK a guy called lord Buckethead ran against the PM of the time. Tereasa may was PM on the far left (of the picture) see if you can guess which one is Buckethead

uk politics is weird

September 10th (Tuesday)

And that's great!

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:30 PM, -W.A.R- said:

You know I thought was joking about Dick Cheney writing the DNC foreign policy platform

A Cheney endorsement probably hurts more than helps.

I think it speaks to how radically far right the GOP has gone since the Bush administration. Could sway some actual centrists.

On 9/7/2024 at 3:21 PM, Sweersa said:

Trump was president in America before, for 4 years, or a single term. 

I'm pretty sure America is going to be fine if he wins again, and "runs" the country for another 4 years. Look at who the US president is now. I'm not sure if he can even complete one sentence anymore or even make it to the mailbox alone without incident. The country with Biden "leading" isn't horrible, nor great. I'm sure it will be fine with Trump in the white house again. 

Except that over 1 million Americans literally did not survive Trump's administration because he let a deadly disease run rampant and his supporters refused to wear masks, get vaccinated or do literally anything to stop it.

I don't think America is "just fine" when the right wing activist supreme court has declared the President to be above the law. I don't think America is "just fine" when one of the two parties has decided they can just lie about winning elections and send fake electors for the VP to falsely accept and overturn the results.

Democracy is the cornerstone of the American project. Undermining democracy is as fundamental an attack on America as it gets.

Your laissez-faire attitude toward Democracy is precisely how authoritarian governments take hold.

Edited September 9 by evilfacelessturtle

[Sweersa]

I wasn’t talking to you, child. Shouldn’t you be in school by now? 
You probably think I’m a murderer for not getting any of the Covid vaccines. 

[evilfacelessturtle]

9 hours ago, Sweersa said:

I wasn’t talking to you, child. Shouldn’t you be in school by now? 

Ah, personal insults, the hallmark of maturity.

As expected, you have no response to the facts put forth. A hit dog certainly hollers.

Quote

You probably think I’m a murderer for not getting any of the Covid vaccines. 

A true sign of good faith is being able to accurately describe the opposing viewpoint. As with most right wingers, you cannot do that because you've fallen for a strawman.

Have you intentionally spread COVID to anyone who later died of it? In that case, you can be charged with Terrorism, Reckless Endangerment and/or Aggravated Assault (which is most often a felony, not jaywalking, Mr. Felonies Aren't That Bad):

Yes, Intentionally Spreading COVID-19 Is A Crime

https://quinnanlaw.com/other-legal-issues/intentionally-spreading-covid-19/

A Man Coughed on a Wegmans Employee. Now He’s Charged With a Felony.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/us/coronavirus-terrorism-nj.html

Now, as to what constitutes "intentional spreading", that's for courts to decide. I don't think the law is just "whatever I want it to be", like you do. Unlike you, I actually believe in law and order and don't minimize the seriousness of a felony, or any crime for that matter.

With that said, I do think it's morally reprehensible to spread a deadly disease. That is what causes the moral decline of western civilization, not LGBT people living freely.

[Sweersa]

You're simply not worth my time, you're one of those people who really can't be engaged with, as is evident by our earlier conversations, which is why I stopped engaging. 

Maybe you will figure it out as you go along, I assume you're quite young. So you have the advantage of time. Use it! 

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

the debate is tonight.

If I were Harris, I would just let Trump do his lying and stand there with a smile on my face and then answer the question which is given to me.

If she doesn't engage in Trump's bullshit, it will frustrate him and he'll probably go off. he can't help himself.

and Vance saying he would have listened to Trump and found votes for him in 2020 to win the election?  

Come on America do we really want this criminal in the White House? NOPE

[-W.A.R-]

30 minutes in and Trump is talking about people eating dogs.

[ZoSoRose]

He is so fucking stupid

[evilfacelessturtle]

14 hours ago, Sweersa said:

You're simply not worth my time, you're one of those people who really can't be engaged with, as is evident by our earlier conversations, which is why I stopped engaging. 

Maybe you will figure it out as you go along, I assume you're quite young. So you have the advantage of time. Use it! 

Personal insults are the coward's form of concession. You're better than that. Have some self respect and just admit you can't respond to the facts. This little song and dance isn't fooling anyone.

Or just continue following der leader's example and call me "little Marco", you basically already have.

[Tom2112]

He was rambling and kept returning to the same points whether it was related or not, he just seemed like he was talking as he always does, from the hip no preparation which was a mistake in my opinion. She was pretty on point, but also more than a bit evasive when she didn't want to answer certain points, highlighted when she said "I'll answer all of your points" and then trailed off talking about her mum bringing her up.

I don't think this debate changed anyones mind or made anybody on the fence sway too far one way or the other though. At least I didn't see anything new here. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:06 AM by Tom2112

[-W.A.R-]

Kamala handled herself very well and was able to get Trump spinning early in which he melted down into talking about people eating dogs and killing babies. Some props to the moderators for actually fact checking some of the more insane shit Trump was spewing - we need more of that. The abortion segment was where she was at her best and most powerful. 

Now ideologically speaking, for me personally, it was a disaster. They basically both competed to come off more right-wing than one another. Unfortunately Kamala is no Marxist as Trump so suggested. Foreign Policy which is my "pet subject" had me pulling out my hair with the ignorance vomited out.

Also FRACKING! got to make sure we support FRACKING!. Nothing is of a higher concern for the residents of Pennsylvania.

[luciusfunk]

I mean...

 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/state-state-breakdown-abortion-laws-2-years-after/story?id=111312220

 

 

 

 

 

https://x.com/captivedreamer7/status/1833540094453813394

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:42 AM by luciusfunk