The US Politics/Elections Thread 2.0

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

What did she say that sways the Polish vote? I don't recall anything standing out in particular?

She mentioned that abandoning Ukraine and allowing Russia to annex it could and likely would lead Russia to set its sights on Poland.  

[downzy]

5 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

But yes a lot of this is true, but you're missing some things that Trump is saying that are worthwhile and focussing on the garbage, for example the impact of sanctions on the dollar (countries now trading in other currencies forming their own trade agreements, which weakens America's hold worldwide). This is something that has been talked about by economists since the sanctions were put on Russia, an actual important issue and I'm yet to hear the Democrats talk about this. The only thing they seem to want to do is push this war into a worse situation, at the very least with Trump he's talking about seeking a peace deal, that's not even a discussion with Biden/Harris.

1) The use of the U.S. Greenback for foreign transactions has almost never been higher.  The ability and risk of a serious challenge to the USD as the de facto international currency is not high in the short to medium future.

2) Nobody cares about this.  This isn't an issue that will flip independents and drive people to the polls.

3) Even if this was an issue that mattered and worthy of Harris's attention, it wouldn't bode well for Trump.  His economic agenda would only drive more countries to use something other than the USD.  Trade sanctions, higher US debt and thereby higher interest rates would lead many countries to consider using something else.  Trump may have his finger on a long-term issue, but his solutions would only make the problem worse.

4) WIth respect to Ukraine, there is no settled peace other than giving Russia what it wants.  That's Trump's plan.  So of course it's not a discussion for Biden, Harris, and most of NATO members.  Trump would facilitate a wholesale capitulation. 

[Tom2112]

Just now, downzy said:

She mentioned that abandoning Ukraine and allowing Russia to annex it could and likely would lead Russia to set its sights on Poland.  

That is laughable though. This idea that Russia actually wants to put itself under the pressure of all out war with Europe is insane and is purely drummed up by NATO more specifically the USA. 

Great example of why you cannot trust the US or Biden 🤣 Voters forget so quickly. Where does this fall in governmental control. Wonder where Ukraine would be now if this hadn't happened, would Poland be scared of invasion? not a chance!

 

[downzy]

21 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

I think a lot of Americans resent that their taxes are spent outside the US, and if they knew that the things that are being done could very easily turn into a very bad financial situation for America in an approx 5-15yr timeframe they'd be less pleased again.

Funding the efforts in the Ukraine is quite possibly the best and cheapest means by which the U.S. achieves its foreign policy initiatives.  Understand that the "funding" isn't going to Ukraine.  It's essentially a make-works program for Americans that allows the U.S. to send older and antiquated military gear to Ukraine and replace it with modern arms and munitions, whereby the funds are spent on U.S. military manufacturing.  It has the added bonus of degrading Russia's military capabilities without putting a single member of the U.S. military at risk.  Maybe American's aren't well educated on the matter, but that would largely be Trump and Republican's fault for undermining something that is truly a win-win for American foreign policy and its military.

[Tom2112]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

1) The use of the U.S. Greenback for foreign transactions has almost never been higher.  The ability and risk of a serious challenge to the USD as the de facto international currency is not high in the short to medium future.

2) Nobody cares about this.  This isn't an issue that will flip independents and drive people to the polls.

3) Even if this was an issue that mattered and worthy of Harris's attention, it wouldn't bode well for Trump.  His economic agenda would only drive more countries to use something other than the USD.  Trade sanctions, higher US debt and thereby higher interest rates would lead many countries to consider using something else.  Trump may have his finger on a long-term issue, but his solutions would only make the problem worse.

4) WIth respect to Ukraine, there is no settled peace other than giving Russia what it wants.  That's Trump's plan.  So of course it's not a discussion for Biden, Harris, and most of NATO members.  Trump would facilitate a wholesale capitulation. 

Nah, in the short term China is over taking rapidly. Time will be the decider but there's enough forecasts that show where things are leading.

It's also the biggest issue, considering the current escalation essentially leads Russia into an impossible war against NATO... which they've been clear that defeat is not an option, the nukes will be used. So Harris and Biden should be de-escalating.  

[Tom2112]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

Funding the efforts in the Ukraine is quote possibly the best and cheapest means by which the U.S. achieves its foreign policy initiatives.  Understand that the "funding" isn't going to Ukraine.  It's essentially a make-works program for Americans that allows the U.S. to send older and antiquated military gear to Ukraine and replace it with modern arms and munitions, whereby the funds are spent on U.S. military manufacturing.  It has the added bonus of degrading Russia's military capabilities without putting a single member of the U.S. military at risk.  Maybe American's aren't well educated on the matter, but that would largely be Trump and Republican's fault for undermining something that is truly a win-win for American foreign policy and its military.

Again I point to the previous video, where Obama was in power and he undermined the Ukrainian government causing all the major issues that we essentially have today. So we can sit here and say it was Trump... but these things happened before and after his term. 

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

That is laughable though. This idea that Russia actually wants to put itself under the pressure of all out war with Europe is insane and is purely drummed up by NATO more specifically the USA. 

Great example of why you cannot trust the US or Biden 🤣 Voters forget so quickly. Where does this fall in governmental control. Wonder where Ukraine would be now if this hadn't happened, would Poland be scared of invasion? not a chance!

 

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-ally-threatens-destroy-poland-1872956

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-ally-warns-enemy-poland-you-risk-losing-your-statehood-2023-11-02/

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ready-launch-offensive-nato-country-poland-1898213

Whether Russia would actually do it or not is another question.  But they have made enough noise on the matter to give people pause.

Regardless, it's still smart politics for Harris to bring it up in a debate.  Pennsylvania has a large Polish population.  If they choose to believe her, that's more votes for her in a crucial swing state. 

2 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

Nah, in the short term China is over taking rapidly. Time will be the decider but there's enough forecasts that show where things are leading.

I guess you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with China's economy and its stock market.  

[Tom2112]

1 minute ago, downzy said:

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-ally-threatens-destroy-poland-1872956

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-ally-warns-enemy-poland-you-risk-losing-your-statehood-2023-11-02/

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ready-launch-offensive-nato-country-poland-1898213

Whether Russia would actually do it or not is another question.  But they have made enough noise on the matter to give people pause.

Regardless, it's still smart politics for Harris to bring it up in a debate.  Pennsylvania has a large Polish population.  If they choose to believe her, that's more votes for her in a crucial swing state. 

I guess you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with China's economy and its stock market.  

I believe I check mated you there. Game set and match😄

 

[downzy]

3 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

It's also the biggest issue, considering the current escalation essentially leads Russia into an impossible war against NATO... which they've been clear that defeat is not an option, the nukes will be used. So Harris and Biden should be de-escalating.  

Russia would have already used its nukes at this point.  Zero chance China would let them anyway.

 

Just now, Tom2112 said:

I believe I check mated you there. Game set and match😄

 

Sorry, what?

[Tom2112]

Just now, downzy said:

Russia would have already used its nukes at this point.  Zero chance China would let them anyway.

 

Sorry, what?

There's zero chance that Russia can win against NATO, and Putin and the Russian government are very, very clear in that they will use the nuclear option if there's any risk of an invasion or attempt from a foreign power (NATO) to topple their government. China and Russia have their working agreement, but at the end of the day Russia makes it's decisions when it comes to that scenario.

"Sorry, what?" That was tongue in cheek. But also, you have been arguing with me about the US involvement in the Ukraine war and you disagree that they manipulated the situation and continue to do so. so also listen again if you still disagree 👍 that's all the info you need to understand what they think of Ukraine or Europe. But that really is a separate thread.

[downzy]

17 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

There's zero chance that Russia can win against NATO, and Putin and the Russian government are very, very clear in that they will use the nuclear option if there's any risk of an invasion or attempt from a foreign power (NATO) to topple their government. China and Russia have their working agreement, but at the end of the day Russia makes it's decisions when it comes to that scenario.

Russia has already been invaded for the past couple of months.  Ukraine has been provided long-range weaponry by the U.S. and its Western allies and still Putin does nothing to retaliate.  We see repeated attacks in Moscow and still nothing happens. 

Russia is hanging because of its support from China, India, Iran, North Korea.  That support ends from China and India if they deploy nuclear weapons.  I just don't see it happening considering everything that's transpired to this point.

17 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

"Sorry, what?" That was tongue in cheek. But also, you have been arguing with me about the US involvement in the Ukraine war and you disagree that they manipulated the situation and continue to do so. so also listen again if you still disagree 👍 that's all the info you need to understand what they think of Ukraine or Europe. But that really is a separate thread.

I'm not inclined to base my opinion on one YouTube video in which the voices are low level diplomats.  To blame Obama on the current state of affairs in the region is a really hard stretch, since two administrations separate his from the war in Ukraine. 

In any event, non of this matters with respect to the election.  What does matter in terms of how the war could impact the election is how Polish-Americans in Pennsylvania perceive Trump's willingness to let Russia "do whatever the hell it wants" in Europe.  Harris scored a point in the debate on this front with respect to winning a crucial swing state.  Whether you agree with her assessment is irrelevant.  Trump did the same in 2020 when he got Biden to acknowledge that Texans living in and around Galveston, Texas would have to adjust to an America that moves on from oil.  Biden's momentum in Texas turned decidedly after this point (though I don't think it determined the state by any means).  

[evilfacelessturtle]

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Dumbass.

 

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

only a big brain like you can explain😄

 

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

You need to step outside and touch grass.

 

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

your head is full of garbage

 

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

You're such a cock. 

 

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

I'm talking about dipshits like you

Haven't you already been told twice to stop with the personal insults? This is just getting juvenile.

The fact that you resort to trying to bully your way out of anything you can't use your words for, really exposes the fact that you have no leg left to stand on. That's not how the real world works, and you're going to be in for a rude awakening when you try to bully the wrong person. No wonder you agree with Trump so much. You're just like him.

You repeatedly balk at the idea that you should be expected to prove anything you say or provide evidence. That is not the mark of an honest person interested in genuine discourse.

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

You read/watch so much BS slanted takes

You know literally nothing about my media diet. In your language, this is what you'd call "evilfacelessturtle Derangement Syndrome". You're so emotionally triggered by my existence that you're jumping to conclusions you couldn't possibly know, and exposing how your feelings are clouding your ability to stick to claims that are even falsifiable. You can't even address my points because you're arguing the leftist strawman you've been sold by right wing media.

Let me guess, you think I watch MSNBC? 

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

He's been president before and he wasn't a dictator.

What a surprise, you also don't know the difference between Fascism and Authoritarianism. Your entire response is irrelevant because you've committed a category error right from the start. I even listed out the tenets of Fascism on the last page of this thread and you still can't grasp it? Jesus Christ.

Trump was prevented from being as authoritarian as he wanted to be because of the checks on power built into our system, and people within his own administration who would not go along with him. His new administration will not have people like Mike Pence who will act as a bulwark for democracy. JD Vance has already said he would go along with Trump's plan to overthrow an election and would not defend democracy as Pence did. There will be no BIll Barr, no General Mattis in his next administration.

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Pretty sure people were actively attacking Trump throughout his presidency and they didn't get abducted in the middle of the night and murdered or threatened

Michael Reinhol would think otherwise, if he were still alive. The protestors abducted by his unidentifiable officers in unmarked vans during the BLM protests would think otherwise.

 

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Trump didn't decide to kill millions of people

Kim Jong Un hasn't killed millions of people. Is he not a dictator to you? You're proving how ignorant you are of the subjects you're opining on with every comment. Dictators do not have to be mass murderers, and fascism is a not a synonym for dictatorship.

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

So you can say "but he said it" but there's words and then there's actions. 

Yes, because someone who isn't, say, a rapist would totally say "I'm going to be a rapist on day one". Do you hear how ridiculous you sound?

I left a long list of his actions on the previous page. Funny how you completely ignored that to instead argue a strawman. Shows how weak you KNOW your arguments are.

20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Democrats good Trump bad is your basic political belief system

Once again proving that you're arguing a scarecrow because you're too chicken to engage me on the substance like a man.

 

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Paraphrasing because I know If I don't say that, you will ask for some fucking article with the exact quote.

LOL, I was criticizing you for paraphrasing, not disclaiming that you were. What a weird dodge.

The fact that you have to paraphrase says everything. Because there is no quote from any Democrat of any position of power saying what you're trying to paint the entire party with.

19 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

go through facebook/instagram comments

This is the problem. Hello?!

You're completely ignoring that the fucking LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE is inciting violence and mocking victims of it, so that you can focus on random comments on social media that you assume are democrats.

If you can't grasp why the comments of the LEADER OF A PARTY are more consequential than random nobodies with zero power, you are beyond reasoning with. But I think you've already proven that quite thoroughly.

Edited Tuesday at 11:06 PM by evilfacelessturtle

[evilfacelessturtle]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:13 PM, downzy said:

Habits and tendencies of dictators:

Not accepting election results.

Attempting to overturn election results.

Sowing distrust in election results in your supporters; doing next to nothing when they violently attempt to interfere in democratic institutions.

Demanding immunity from any and all prosecution

Using foreign policy to undermine your likely electoral opponent

Systematic efforts to intimidate the media

Demanding loyalty from career public officials (military generals, civil servants)

Using state power to reward corporate backers and punish opponents

 

I can think of more, but I think you get the gist...

Gee, what a shock, he didn't respond to this.

They know exactly the game they're playing, and will come back with the same talking points the next time this subject comes up, as if you said nothing at all in response. You've already seen it on a previous page where I defined Fascism in incredibly clear terms and yet they continue on in the same faux ignorance. Round and round we go.

Edited yesterday at 03:54 AM by evilfacelessturtle

[evilfacelessturtle]

And I can't help but notice these same people have nothing to say about major GOP figures calling Democrats "Communists" since the Obama administration. Where are the lectures about inciting violence over that? Crickets.

[downzy]

11 hours ago, evilfacelessturtle said:

And I can't help but notice these same people have nothing to say about major GOP figures calling Democrats "Communists" since the Obama administration. Where are the lectures about inciting violence over that? Crickets.

Communists is a drop in the bucket compared to what Trump and his allies have said about Democrats...

- Trump calling on supporters to beat up hecklers

- Trump mocking Nancy Pelosi's husband for being attacked by a MAGA supporter with a hammer

- Trump calling for and threatening execution to former Joint Chief of Staff Mark Milley because he viewed him disloyal

- Trump encouraging police to rough up people they're arresting.

- Trump praising an elected official for roughing up a reporter

- Trump using the racist phrase "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" during the George Floyd protests

 

Democrats argue Trump is a threat to democracy.  Trump says Democrats and liberals a destroying the country.  One statement is based on actual actions and words used by one candidate and his allies.  The other is made up nonsense.  

They are not the same.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Now because of Trump and Vance talking about Haitians eating pets these Americans are afraid to go out of their houses.

This is not America. Everyone comes to America for a better life. True many of them have been targeted but hopefully eventually like my grandparents found a better life and learning about each other makes us better people and more accepting.

America has good and bad people, but it's not all migrants. Many of the crimes committed here are from US citizens.

All this hate isn't good for any of us, yet Trump keeps spewing it.

Even after two attempts on his life he still spreads lies. Now he thinks he's invincible and instead of trying to be better he goes back to his hatred. He is a threat to all Americans and the free world.

I really hope Harris gets elected and Trump goes away.

[evilfacelessturtle]

7 hours ago, downzy said:

Communists is a drop in the bucket compared to what Trump and his allies have said about Democrats...

- Trump calling on supporters to beat up hecklers

- Trump mocking Nancy Pelosi's husband for being attacked by a MAGA supporter with a hammer

- Trump calling for and threatening execution to former Joint Chief of Staff Mark Milley because he viewed him disloyal

- Trump encouraging police to rough up people they're arresting.

- Trump praising an elected official for roughing up a reporter

- Trump using the racist phrase "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" during the George Floyd protests

Democrats argue Trump is a threat to democracy.  Trump says Democrats and liberals a destroying the country.  One statement is based on actual actions and words used by one candidate and his allies.  The other is made up nonsense.  

They are not the same.

Don't forget "vermin" who are "poisoning the blood of the country". At this point, you could take a Mussolini speech, swap out the scapegoats and the MAGA crowd would give it thunderous applause.

"Communists" is just the most obvious flip side of what they are exclusively criticizing Dems for. The kind of selective vision it would take to decry the left for calling Trump fascist, while ignoring that the GOP has been calling the left communist for much longer, really speaks to a one-sided media diet. Well, that or deliberately holding a double standard.

Imagine claiming to be impartial while defending Trump against all evidence of fascism, while also pretending the right does not call the left communist. You can't get any more partisan than that.

Hell, he just lied that Harris' father was a Marxist during the debate. They don't even have the excuse that its not fresh in their minds.

Not to mention, the right will also unironically call the left Fascist, because words have no meaning when you're a propagandist.

"She’s a Marxist. She’s a fascist" - Trump

Holy shit, Trump even called the left "Communist" in his response to the shooting! You cannot even parody the gaslighting of the GOP.

"Because of this Communist Left Rhetoric, the bullets are flying" - Donald Trump

The gaslighting of that comment alone would make any genuinely impartial person stand in awe.

"CORRUPT AND WEAPONIZED COMMUNISTS DEMOCRAT CONTROLLED DOJ." - Marjorie Taylor Greene

"we did not fight tyranny abroad only to let Marxists destroy our beloved country" - Trump

“Comrade Kamala” - Trump

“All we have to do is define our opponent as being a communist or a socialist.” - Trump

"They will mutilate the law, disfigure the Constitution and impose a socialist vision" - Trump

Yeah, nothing inciting about that...

[evilfacelessturtle]

5 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Now because of Trump and Vance talking about Haitians eating pets these Americans are afraid to go out of their houses.

Not only that, they're getting death threats and bomb threats.

https://apnews.com/article/springfield-ohio-haitian-immigrants-threats-key-details-7594bae869fb05dc6f106098409418cc

"More than 30 bomb threats have been made against schools, government buildings and city officials’ homes since last week, forcing evacuations and closures. Springfield also canceled its annual celebration of diversity, arts and culture in response to the threats, and on Tuesday, state police were deployed to city schools."

The father of the boy who died in a car accident with an immigrant is begging the GOP to stop using his son's corpse as a political weapon.

"You know, I wish that my son, Aiden Clark, was killed by a 60-year-old white man,” Clark said. “I bet you never thought anyone would ever say something so blunt. But if that guy killed my 11-year-old son, the incessant group of hate-spewing people would leave us alone. The last thing that we need is to have the worst day of our lives violently and constantly shoved in our faces.”

https://fox59.com/news/national-world/his-son-died-in-a-crash-with-a-haitian-immigrant-he-says-trump-vance-are-using-it-for-political-gain/

JD Vance claimed the boy was "murdered", which is not only a lie, but deliberately inciting fear, anger and violence against immigrants by painting them as murderers. The cravenness of the MAGA movement is sickening.

Edited 17 hours ago by evilfacelessturtle

[downzy]

Polling trends show momentum for Harris.  She has tangible leads in the blue wall states (contrast that to Biden who was losing to Trump in all three).

Unsurprisingly, Trump is shocked to believe that, Harris - a woman - could be doing better in the polls.

That should help him with female voters.  Idiot.

 

 

Kind of shocking to me is how little discussion is happening around Trump's announcement of a new crypto scheme.  It just reinforces how Trump gets away with stuff that no other person running for elected office could.  We're less than 50 days out from the election and the nominee for one of the two major political parties in the U.S. decides to launch a money making scheme.  And no one really bats an eye at it.  As if a get rich scheme is just a normal thing to do while running to be President.