ZoSoRose Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 @DieselDaisy @action We are so close to the end of this. Even if you choose not to receive a vaccine, we will all still see millions of less cases. Gradually, this will be behind us and we won't have to debate lockdowns and masks. Just why not take these measures until we get there? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/absolutely-remarkable-no-one-who-got-modernas-vaccine-trial-developed-severe-covid-19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 The affect of corona on cancer care. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/11/05/counting-the-invisible-costs-of-covid-19-the-cancer-pandemic/ and for an affiliated article relaying the data behind delays https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4087 Quote Substantial increases in the number of avoidable cancer deaths in England are to be expected as a result of diagnostic delays due to the COVID-19 pandemic in the UK. Urgent policy interventions are necessary, particularly the need to manage the backlog within routine diagnostic services to mitigate the expected impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on patients with cancer. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext Suicide rates, https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4352 Again, this is empirical and science-driven and not a product of my ''faux intellectualism'' (zoso) or so-called ''right wing conspiracy theorizing'' (soon). https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/04/four-week-cancer-treatment-delay-raises-death-risk-study-nhs-covid Individual cases abound, https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-told-cancer-terminal-after-18824461 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-53935643 Etc etc - I could go on. Why do people not care about these people dying, but only care about the 1-3% dying from corona? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 @DieselDaisy the majority of patients who need critical care can do so during a lockdown. In the summer, we got down to an average 200 new cases a day (we are at over 8000 now). Even less can get care when hospitals are filled with COVID patients. I have patient care experience, I have many people working directly there right now. There is no medical care if COVID breaks the healthcare system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 minute ago, ZoSoRose said: @DieselDaisy @action We are so close to the end of this. Even if you choose not to receive a vaccine, we will all still see millions of less cases. Gradually, this will be behind us and we won't have to debate lockdowns and masks. Just why not take these measures until we get there? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/absolutely-remarkable-no-one-who-got-modernas-vaccine-trial-developed-severe-covid-19 I haven't stated that I would not ''receive a vaccine''. I said I wouldn't (currently) take the Oxford one - or to clarify, wouldn't exactly be the first one to take it - because basically the trial data is suspect. I also oppose with every moral fibre of my body mandatory vaccine - vaccination should be consensual. But nowhere have I stated categorically that I repudiate vaccination in toto. I suspect I will be taking one of the vaccinations in a few months, key workers and the vulnerable having had their doses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: What about experts who disagree with the experts you agree with? I have quoted statistics and data and scientific viewpoints on here before (usually ignored). What makes your experts superior to the experts I'm hearing? Most of these people have similar academic credentials (MA/PHD) and experience yet are arriving at completely different viewpoints! Heh. Finding one doctor, who is an anti-vaxxer, and who claims face masks are useless is quite different from combined view of the scientific consensus. Arguing that this one doctor has the equivalent weight as the majority of research scientists, is quite frankly a bit silly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, DieselDaisy said: I haven't stated that I would not ''receive a vaccine''. I said I wouldn't (currently) take the Oxford one - or to clarify, wouldn't exactly be the first one to take it - because basically the trial data is suspect. I also oppose with every moral fibre of my body mandatory vaccine - vaccination should be consensual. But nowhere have I stated categorically that I repudiate vaccination in toto. I suspect I will be taking one of the vaccinations in a few months, key workers and the vulnerable having had their doses. I'm sorry I didn't necessarily mean that as a call out. I'm just saying even if people don't take it, it will still have a beneficial effect for everyone because so many will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said: @DieselDaisy the majority of patients who need critical care can do so during a lockdown. In the summer, we got down to an average 200 new cases a day (we are at over 8000 now). Even less can get care when hospitals are filled with COVID patients. I have patient care experience, I have many people working directly there right now. There is no medical care if COVID breaks the healthcare system. At no stage has our health care ever been in danger of being broken. We built all of these hospitals (Nightingales) which are sitting unused. It is good that your health care system has managed to maintain their non-covid operational, but again, see the links. This has not happened in the United Kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: What about the deaths caused by homelessness, starvation and suicide as a consequence of business closures? Britain is literally trashing her entire hospitality sector - millions of jobs - for a disease which kills 1-3%? What about the deaths caused by delayed medical check-ups and procedures? People have literally died or been given a terminal life span because their cancer operation has been delayed due to corona? Why do you not care about these people? You cannot seriously be arguing that these deaths are anywhere near the deaths from Covbid-19 directly? Again, you care about businesses, we care about people. Or, you care about yourself so you construct half-assed arguments to make it seem the lockdowns are bad. 9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Why do people not care about these people dying, but only care about the 1-3% dying from corona? Why do you keep repeating this absurdity that people don't care? Oh yeah, because you are a troll. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: At no stage has our health care ever been in danger of being broken. We built all of these hospitals (Nightingales) which are sitting unused. It is good that your health care system has managed to maintain their non-covid operational, but again, see the links. This has not happened in the United Kingdom. Hospitals are in danger right now. Empty facilities do not even mean anything, as each wave can get worse and worse. The hospital I used to work at had to convert an entire tower for COVID care. Many others around here did the same. This is all during a time where most people do not even know someone with COVID. Imagine when things get worse and worse. You also need people to work under these conditions consistently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Further, the effects of lockdowns on liberty (freedom of speech, right to protest, consensual policing, jurisprudence etc) will be catastrophic. Great Britain has built-up a system of parliamentary democracy over centuries and it has effectively been dismantled in a few months! The repercussions of this are almost too seismic and dark to ponder on. We in the historical community are only beginning to wrestle with this, and we have been inundated with historic analogies which are very dark indeed. The Scottish historian-archaeologist Neil Oliver speaks much more eloquently on this subject than I could on youtube (Anglocentric somewhat but still relatable to the United States and other democracies), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Dies claims to not believe that masks can capture droplets leaving his mouth. He doesn't trust science, common sense or his own observations. I mean, no one likes lock down and restrictions. Its just most of us dont then try to reverse engineer argumentation as to why the things we dont like are in fact the wrong things to do. Must be exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, soon said: Dies claims to not believe that masks can capture droplets leaving his mouth Pity I never made that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, DieselDaisy said: Pity I never made that claim. Yeah - you ramble on and on about how masks dont work. ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, soon said: Yeah - you ramble on and on about how masks dont work. ffs I actually asked a question, and am yet to receive an answer. It is not sufficient for me to merely throw myself into a general ''wear a mask'' reverie I'm afraid like you and the other automatons on here for me to believe they offer a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I actually asked a question, and am yet to receive an answer. You did. But you ignore everything that doesn't fit with your preconceptions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 He is missing me I see haha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I actually asked a question, and am yet to receive an answer. It is not sufficient for me to merely throw myself into a general ''wear a mask'' reverie I'm afraid like you and the other automatons on here for me to believe they offer a solution. Youve literally attempted to redefine what it is to put thought into something. Incredible! As in, 'people who understand why masks work arent thinking and those who remain ignorant to the fact of masks in the pandemic are thinking.' Again, this futile exercise must be exhausting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontdamnmeuyi2015 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Gov Abbott said if numbers keep going up he will close bars and make restaurants to 50% capacity. I think it's long overdue. The numbers in Texas are terrible. They might have to turn patients away. The ICU's are filling up. All the health care workers are so overworked and tired. I hope this vaccine comes soon and keeps them safe to care for all these patients. My brother had minor surgery a few weeks ago. The whole staff signed a thank you card for him choosing this clinic. I thought how amazing and nice was that. I have to admit anytime any of us have a medical procedure the whole staff does thank you or they call you to see how you are. I think this is going the extra mile. Some school districts had to close again. Not sure how this will go for other cities. So far my daughter's school is open for classroom learning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The cost of lockdown, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-55133081 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakey Styley Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Many restaurants/bars in my city have stayed open through the shutdown. The fact of the matter is that a shutdown without any sort of stimulus is tyrannical and a tragic death sentence to a lot of small businesses. Chains and high-end restaurants in the city can afford to build a patio with a densely packed tent and expensive outdoor heaters and somehow this is allowed despite everyone being the same distance from one another in an enclosed area. Smaller restaurants and bars either can't afford to do this or don't have the space. It's an uneven playing field founded on nonsensical grounds. You can argue that we need these shutdowns, but no way in hell does it make sense to do so without alleviating the very real loss that occurs as a result of them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Jakey Styley said: Many restaurants/bars in my city have stayed open through the shutdown. The fact of the matter is that a shutdown without any sort of stimulus is tyrannical and a tragic death sentence to a lot of small businesses. Chains and high-end restaurants in the city can afford to build a patio with a densely packed tent and expensive outdoor heaters and somehow this is allowed despite everyone being the same distance from one another in an enclosed area. Smaller restaurants and bars either can't afford to do this or don't have the space. It's an uneven playing field founded on nonsensical grounds. You can argue that we need these shutdowns, but no way in hell does it make sense to do so without alleviating the very real loss that occurs as a result of them. Yes, poor countries will do worse since they are least able to offer stimulus packages to industries badly hit by lockdowns (as will poorly run countries that choose not to offset the bad effects of lockdowns with such packages), as will companies with worse economies than companies with robust economies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontdamnmeuyi2015 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The congress is still arguing over how much to spend on another stimulus plan. So many things will run out at the end of the year. I don't know how the government expects people to survive. The food lines are so long and it makes me sad how so many people count on this. Every worse thing that could happen has happened this year. We need a miracle more than ever this Christmas. The news said that there are over 15,000 Angel Tree kids still needing someone to pick their name. It would be so sad for so many kids not to have anything under their tree this year. you can donate online which is what I have done. I haven't shopped in any malls since the pandemic, but I still give to charities through the pc or mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 8 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: The cost of lockdown, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-55133081 Again - the poor existed prior to the lockdowns. In this video it’s made clear that many of these people are disabled. All this existed prior to lockdowns. And it was unacceptable then. These humans plight isn’t just anti lockdown ammo. Shameful to use them in this manner. And of course gov should provide for people during lockdown. Ours did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, soon said: Again - the poor existed prior to the lockdowns. In this video it’s made clear that many of these people are disabled. All this existed prior to lockdowns. And it was unacceptable then. These humans plight isn’t just anti lockdown ammo. Shameful to use them in this manner. And of course gov should provide for people during lockdown. Ours did. I can only offer the video description in rebuttal to this idiocy (my highlighting), Quote The poorest communities have been hit hardest during the Covid-19 pandemic. BBC analysis shows the death rate from all causes between April and June this year in the most deprived areas was nearly double that of deaths in the least deprived parts of England. The majority of the top 10 cities and towns with the highest death rates were in the north of England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I can only offer the video description in rebuttal to this idiocy (my highlighting), Sure. Im presenting "idiocy" Does anyone still like you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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