Shallow song .. A possible explanation (could be by Stuart Bailey)

[Rindmelon]

Please move this if not right section but last year I went down the rabbit hole with this a bit and figured I would share what I found.... I'm only posting it in GN'R section as it involves a song people think may be GN'R

I found a reference to a band called The Assassins in an old copy of Kerrang from 94. Axl had held a band showcase at the Troubadour to try and get a few bands signed when he was trying to get UZI suicide back off the ground. 
Stuart Bailey Axl's half brother was a guitar player in that band. I looked into them and found a Soundcloud account by there drummer Michael Monasterio & also a Youtube channel. 

There demo's have been sitting on Soundcloud for about 12 years. I didn't know about them until last year. Nowhere do they push that Stuart is Axl's brother at all, there are literally no comments on the tracks and they don't have many listens. I only found them because I found the showcase story with the band name Assassins in that old Kerrang. I checked with @Blackstar who knew about the Kerrang article, but had not heard the demo's.

I listened through his tracks and this one stood out straight away as being a bit familiar.

Obviously the vocals are different but that opening guitar part is very close to my ears. A similar pattern played on a different part of the guitar neck but related. It sounds like the Shalala/Shallow thing could be an early version of what that Assassins track turned into.

 

Not many believe that song is gn'r (I don't either) but i think there is a chance that it's Axl helping his half brother/assistant out by trying to shadow write and demo an idea with him. Stuart was an assistant/ gopher to Axl back in these days (so they were around each other a lot) and if he was trying to get his own band off the ground I expect Axl would have helped him, we know he did in 1994 later on, so why not earlier? I don't expect anyone to actually agree with me on this btw, just thought I'd throw it out there to see if you guys hear any similarities at all.

 

 

Below is another mention of the band

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3068-1994-11-dd-raw-magazine-four-bust-ups-and-a-single
'The Assassins are also close to inking a deal, and can expect a huge amount of publicity when they do sign, as they feature Axl's brother Stuart Bailey on guitar. Bailey was previously best-known as a vocalist with Dr. Whiskey. The Assassins' music, which Bailey has a hand in writing, is in the currently hot Southern Rock vein being pursued by the likes of Pride & Glory, and on the softer side, Blind Melon (another band Axl has helped out).'

I tried to contact Michael Monasterio, but he found he died in 2013. 

It turns out when he was 20 he got a young girl pregnant and the baby she had turned out to be the actress Jessica Chastain who is in movies like Interstellar and Zero Dark Thirty, although it seems she pretty much pretends he didn't exist. Which is an odd twist to the whole thing.
 

Here is a link to the Assassins Soundcloud page 

 

[Karice]

Speaking of Stuart, I would have loved if Axl and Stuart would have been in Guns N'Roses together as Lead Singer and Secondary Singer. 😀💡🤔

Edited June 18 by Karice

[Rindmelon]

4 minutes ago, Karice said:

Speaking of Stuart, I would have loved if Axl and Stuart would have been in Guns N'Roses together as Lead Singer and Secondary Singer. 😀💡🤔

lol No you wouldn't I have an acapella of his vocals somewhere, the vocal talent did not fun in the family.... No offense to him intended . He Axl and Amy did sing together as kids though.

[Karice]

8 hours ago, Rindmelon said:

lol No you wouldn't I have an acapella of his vocals somewhere, the vocal talent did not fun in the family.... No offense to him intended . He Axl and Amy did sing together as kids though.

Hmm. Stuart and Axl are half Brothers. Is it possible that Axl got his talent from his FATHER'S side of the Family and not his MOTHER'S side of the Family? 💡🤔

[BucketEgg]

12 hours ago, Rindmelon said:

Please move this if not right section but last year I went down the rabbit hole with this a bit and figured I would share what I found.... I'm only posting it in GN'R section as it involves a song people think may be GN'R

I found a reference to a band called The Assassins in an old copy of Kerrang from 94. Axl had held a band showcase at the Troubadour to try and get a few bands signed when he was trying to get UZI suicide back off the ground. 
Stuart Bailey Axl's half brother was a guitar player in that band. I looked into them and found a Soundcloud account by there drummer Michael Monasterio & also a Youtube channel. 

There demo's have been sitting on Soundcloud for about 12 years. I didn't know about them until last year. Nowhere do they push that Stuart is Axl's brother at all, there are literally no comments on the tracks and they don't have many listens. I only found them because I found the showcase story with the band name Assassins in that old Kerrang. I checked with @Blackstar who knew about the Kerrang article, but had not heard the demo's.

I listened through his tracks and this one stood out straight away as being a bit familiar.

Obviously the vocals are different but that opening guitar part is very close to my ears. A similar pattern played on a different part of the guitar neck but related. It sounds like the Shalala/Shallow thing could be an early version of what that Assassins track turned into.

 

Not many believe that song is gn'r (I don't either) but i think there is a chance that it's Axl helping his half brother/assistant out by trying to shadow write and demo an idea with him. Stuart was an assistant/ gopher to Axl back in these days (so they were around each other a lot) and if he was trying to get his own band off the ground I expect Axl would have helped him, we know he did in 1994 later on, so why not earlier? I don't expect anyone to actually agree with me on this btw, just thought I'd throw it out there to see if you guys hear any similarities at all.

 

 

Below is another mention of the band

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3068-1994-11-dd-raw-magazine-four-bust-ups-and-a-single
'The Assassins are also close to inking a deal, and can expect a huge amount of publicity when they do sign, as they feature Axl's brother Stuart Bailey on guitar. Bailey was previously best-known as a vocalist with Dr. Whiskey. The Assassins' music, which Bailey has a hand in writing, is in the currently hot Southern Rock vein being pursued by the likes of Pride & Glory, and on the softer side, Blind Melon (another band Axl has helped out).'

I tried to contact Michael Monasterio, but he found he died in 2013. 

It turns out when he was 20 he got a young girl pregnant and the baby she had turned out to be the actress Jessica Chastain who is in movies like Interstellar and Zero Dark Thirty, although it seems she pretty much pretends he didn't exist. Which is an odd twist to the whole thing.
 

Here is a link to the Assassins Soundcloud page 

 

I think this is an excellent exploration down a rabbit hole!

It goes in an area and band that hasn't been really explored before, and you came out with a whole bunch of tracks to listen to!
The idea that Axl wrote demos to help his brother out is an interesting and non-impossible idea.

I think that track 3 you listed does have a few similarities guitar-wise to Shallow, and there's some sort of string instruments that begin midway through, that's a bit like the drums beginning 2/3 the way through with Shallow.

But I'm unsure Shallow became that track. One of the most noticeable features about Shallow is that it begins mellow and melancholic, then builds up to an explosive ending. The Assassins track is a nice mellow track throughout, but without the build-up, it's like the concept of the songs are different, opposite even. The Assassins track 3 is about needing someone a lot, and that other person brings the singer stability, and the song stays mellow. Shallow is about the singer being a failure, the girl is crying, it devolves into emotional instability and screaming.

Maybe the guitar part was taken, changed, and the rest of the song was changed too, leaving little of Shallow left, to distance from leaning too much on Axl's help. But I still think the songs are too different.

Maybe one is inspired by the other? As in, Track 3 could've been written in response to Shallow, from the viewpoint of the other person/the girl in the song. Even if they're unrelated songs, they do go nicely as a pair.

There's also the other tracks on the mystery tape. I haven't listened to all the Assassin's song in full, but from what I heard, none of the other songs bear much resemblance to the other 3 tracks on the mystery tape. I'm going to get around to listening to all The Assassins track. Maybe they only liked Shallow enough to develop a part of it into their own track.

I think it's possible the mystery tape tracks might have been an effort to help Stuart, but I'm unsure if those tracks specifically were turned into The Assassins songs.

Thanks for the effort for trying to contact Monasterio, so the rest of us don't have to try. and that Jessica Chastain twist was an interesting thing to find in this rabbit hole.

Edited June 19 by BucketEgg

[Georgina Arriaga]

There Is story in You Tube about Jessica Chastain father. When the guy died, he had nothing AND Axl pays for his funeral AND Burial.

Edited June 19 by Georgina Arriaga

[Karice]

1 hour ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

There Is story in You Tuve about Jessica Chastain father. When the guy died, he has nothing AND Axl pays for his funeral AND Burial.

Wow, that's very Humanitarian, generous, thoughtful, and caring of Axl to do! 😀😳(happily shocked) 😀

[D4NNY]

4 hours ago, Karice said:

Wow, that's very Humanitarian, generous, thoughtful, and caring of Axl to do! 😀😳(happily shocked) 😀

Axls always had a nice side but sadly his “bad” side over shadowed all the good (at least in the media and general publics view). Let’s not forget, if it wasn’t for Axl, Dizzy would have been homeless and possibly worse. 

[THELINESMAN]

Shallow song definitely sounds like Axl to me. Good song and good vocals!

[BluegrassBlues]

7 hours ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

There Is story in You Tube about Jessica Chastain father. When the guy died, he had nothing AND Axl pays for his funeral AND Burial.

That is the first I am hearing about this story, that was a very kind thing for him to do. I'm a fan of Jessica Chastain's and had no clue she had a connection to the band at all 

[2020_Intensions]

1 hour ago, THELINESMAN said:

Shallow song definitely sounds like Axl to me. Good song and good vocals!

Shallow is definitely Axl singing. Others' rasp sound similar, but Axl's is 100% unique and that is his voice. Especially the way he enunciates "shallow" and then the "na na na" parts and he also does his signature "ow!" before the guitar solo. Undeniably Axl singing on that song.

[lame ass security]

15 hours ago, Karice said:

Hmm. Stuart and Axl are half Brothers. Is it possible that Axl got his talent from his FATHER'S side of the Family and not his MOTHER'S side of the Family? 💡🤔

Definitely plausible, that kind of vocal ability doesn't just happen. His scoundrel dad at least gave him an amazing set of pipes. Genetics is absolutely everything. 

Edited June 19 by lame ass security

[Rindmelon]

18 hours ago, BucketEgg said:

I think this is an excellent exploration down a rabbit hole!

It goes in an area and band that hasn't been really explored before, and you came out with a whole bunch of tracks to listen to!
The idea that Axl wrote demos to help his brother out is an interesting and non-impossible idea.

I think that track 3 you listed does have a few similarities guitar-wise to Shallow, and there's some sort of string instruments that begin midway through, that's a bit like the drums beginning 2/3 the way through with Shallow.

But I'm unsure Shallow became that track. One of the most noticeable features about Shallow is that it begins mellow and melancholic, then builds up to an explosive ending. The Assassins track is a nice mellow track throughout, but without the build-up, it's like the concept of the songs are different, opposite even. The Assassins track 3 is about needing someone a lot, and that other person brings the singer stability, and the song stays mellow. Shallow is about the singer being a failure, the girl is crying, it devolves into emotional instability and screaming.

Maybe the guitar part was taken, changed, and the rest of the song was changed too, leaving little of Shallow left, to distance from leaning too much on Axl's help. But I still think the songs are too different.

Maybe one is inspired by the other? As in, Track 3 could've been written in response to Shallow, from the viewpoint of the other person/the girl in the song. Even if they're unrelated songs, they do go nicely as a pair.

There's also the other tracks on the mystery tape. I haven't listened to all the Assassin's song in full, but from what I heard, none of the other songs bear much resemblance to the other 3 tracks on the mystery tape. I'm going to get around to listening to all The Assassins track. Maybe they only liked Shallow enough to develop a part of it into their own track.

I think it's possible the mystery tape tracks might have been an effort to help Stuart, but I'm unsure if those tracks specifically were turned into The Assassins songs.

Thanks for the effort for trying to contact Monasterio, so the rest of us don't have to try. and that Jessica Chastain twist was an interesting thing to find in this rabbit hole.

At the time that tape was supposed to be made Stuart wasn't in The Asassins I think he was in Dr Whisky. I do have one of there songs somewhere but the quality is awful. Could be them in theory I guess.

If you like falling down the rabbit hole I suggest looking in to the song Dragon sometime

[BucketEgg]

Was there anyone that was there at the time who noted down the tracks that were in the ebay listing they were discussing?

It doesn't seem to be in the Internet Archive, and I can't find it on Worthpoint either.

Edited June 20 by BucketEgg

[Rindmelon]

23 minutes ago, BucketEgg said:

Was there anyone that was there at the time who noted down the tracks that were in the ebay listing they were discussing?

It doesn't seem to be in the Internet Archive, and I can't find it on Worthpoint either.

Not that i'm aware of. I do know that Jeff Powel was a member of Dr Whisky and that he died. This is the only studio version of a song by Dr Whisky that I know for a fact is actually them.. Stuart is on vocals & this was posted to Monasterio's Youtube channel. there is however live footage up on the channel too but thats of The Assassins

 

Edited June 20 by Rindmelon

[Rindmelon]

@BucketEgg Nothing to do with the music but i would say this proves Axl donated to his funeral costs. 

Memorial for Michael Monasterio | Indiegogo

Aram Shaw over 11 years ago

PROJECT OWNER

OMGOODNESS!!!! Our campaign has already reached 80% of it’s goal!!!! And it is because of each of you. We extend our upmost gratitude to Jenn, Michael H, Kimberly, Jana, Beta, Cousin Art and Jahna.

Also the comments have a few leads there. This lady photographed Dr Whisky for a magazine back in the day Portrait Photographer | Jana Marcus Photography | California.

If she remembers the magazine and we find a copy then that could turn up info on song names ect.

[Karice]

On 6/19/2024 at 5:55 PM, lame ass security said:

Definitely plausible, that kind of vocal ability doesn't just happen. His scoundrel dad at least gave him an amazing set of pipes. Genetics is absolutely everything. 

Axl is lucky he got his MOTHER'S looks because his Dad looked VERY average, whereas Sharon's genetics made Axl look STUNNING. In fact, Stuart, Amy, and Axl all got Sharon's good looks. 😀

[Rindmelon]

@BucketEgg was going to PM you this but maybe others can give there opinion too, Isolated vocal clip from the 80's tape, slowed down a little to try and make it easier to understand.

'Why'd you stay alone? Baby now they know
You fight to decide, will you live or die?' to my ears anyway

[matt1313]

I can't believe this topic isn't getting as much attention as it should.  Who cares about Stuart Bailey... but the purported 'Shallow' recording absolutely sounds like Axl.  If it's not, that's the best impersonation I've ever heard... by far.   The second half of that song is mesmerizing... cleaned up and recorded properly, that could have been a GNR classic.   As far as I'm concerned, this is a real gem... a 'holy grail' from the GNR early days.  Probably the biggest news of 2024 in the GNR world.  

It's maddening how every member of this band, but one, is willing to churn out new music.  What an absolute waste of talent.

If Axl is worried about legacy, and not living up to AFD or UYI, he has nothing to worry about.  His legacy is that of shitting the bed at every turn since 1994, and wasting his incredible talents.  

We all CRAVE a new album from this band... that's been riding the nostalgia train since 2016... throwing us reworked CD leftovers, passing it off as 'new'.  That's lazy and a slap-in-the-face to all of the fans.  

And where are we in 2024?  At least where am I?  Excited about a terrible quality demo from the 80's that I've never heard before.  If modern GNR could churn out a few tunes like that, I'd be a happy camper.  But, no... what do we get?  A big nothing-burger at every turn.  

Cue the usual crowd to come on here and hammer away at 'but they don't owe us anything'... 'just be happy they're touring'.  Whatever.  One can still be upset that their (once) favorite band is nothing more than cashing in on the old stuff and milking it for all it's worth, despite their massive talent.  

Slash alone is writing incredible music with a mediocre backing band (with all due respect to those guys). Put Axl on vocals on any of Slash's non-cover albums, and you'll have a killer GNR record. 

This shit isn't that hard.  Yet, here we are, with a 60 something Axl who will be dead or decrepit soon, unable to share his talent with the world.   He has little time to do so, and is just shitting it all away.   At least he's lining the coffers for the freeloaders, who will no doubt release anything Axl's been holding onto and cash in even more long after he's gone.  

It's baffling how dysfunctional Axl Rose really is.   Appreciate what he has given us, though.  

But hearing this 'Shallow' song just pisses me off.  It reminds me of all the wasted potential. 

[Grayfox]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:40 PM, Rindmelon said:

@BucketEgg was going to PM you this but maybe others can give there opinion too, Isolated vocal clip from the 80's tape, slowed down a little to try and make it easier to understand.

'Why'd you stay alone? Baby now they know
You fight to decide, will you live or die?' to my ears anyway

Where is this clip from? 

[Rindmelon]

Just now, Grayfox said:

Where is this clip from? 

Rip of the cassette tape that may or may not be gnr (probably isn't) people are undecided if it's Axl however

[BucketEgg]

On 6/29/2024 at 3:40 AM, Rindmelon said:

@BucketEgg was going to PM you this but maybe others can give there opinion too, Isolated vocal clip from the 80's tape, slowed down a little to try and make it easier to understand.

'Why'd you stay alone? Baby now they know
You fight to decide, will you live or die?' to my ears anyway

That's an excellent clean up!

It shows that using lyrics to identify the song is going to be a tough challenge, since people's interpretations vary a lot, and they all sound equally matching.

I've heard other people say
"While you're staying alone, do you know where to go?
It's time to decide, to live or die".

But at least with these variations, the most commonly agreed on lyrics are:

stay, alone, no/know, to decide, live or die.

I agree with the "Baby now they know" interpretation of that section, since the amount of syllables fits better.

 

 

On 7/1/2024 at 2:09 PM, matt1313 said:

I can't believe this topic isn't getting as much attention as it should.  Who cares about Stuart Bailey... but the purported 'Shallow' recording absolutely sounds like Axl.  If it's not, that's the best impersonation I've ever heard... by far.   The second half of that song is mesmerizing... cleaned up and recorded properly, that could have been a GNR classic.   As far as I'm concerned, this is a real gem... a 'holy grail' from the GNR early days.  Probably the biggest news of 2024 in the GNR world.  

It's maddening how every member of this band, but one, is willing to churn out new music.  What an absolute waste of talent.

If Axl is worried about legacy, and not living up to AFD or UYI, he has nothing to worry about.  His legacy is that of shitting the bed at every turn since 1994, and wasting his incredible talents.  

We all CRAVE a new album from this band... that's been riding the nostalgia train since 2016... throwing us reworked CD leftovers, passing it off as 'new'.  That's lazy and a slap-in-the-face to all of the fans.  

And where are we in 2024?  At least where am I?  Excited about a terrible quality demo from the 80's that I've never heard before.  If modern GNR could churn out a few tunes like that, I'd be a happy camper.  But, no... what do we get?  A big nothing-burger at every turn.  

Cue the usual crowd to come on here and hammer away at 'but they don't owe us anything'... 'just be happy they're touring'.  Whatever.  One can still be upset that their (once) favorite band is nothing more than cashing in on the old stuff and milking it for all it's worth, despite their massive talent.  

Slash alone is writing incredible music with a mediocre backing band (with all due respect to those guys). Put Axl on vocals on any of Slash's non-cover albums, and you'll have a killer GNR record. 

This shit isn't that hard.  Yet, here we are, with a 60 something Axl who will be dead or decrepit soon, unable to share his talent with the world.   He has little time to do so, and is just shitting it all away.   At least he's lining the coffers for the freeloaders, who will no doubt release anything Axl's been holding onto and cash in even more long after he's gone.  

It's baffling how dysfunctional Axl Rose really is.   Appreciate what he has given us, though.  

But hearing this 'Shallow' song just pisses me off.  It reminds me of all the wasted potential. 

Have you heard the other 3 songs yet? There's a long nearly 7 minute song among them.

[BucketEgg]

The first track on the tape is very unclear.
(so there's going to be a lot of nonsense in the below)

Lots of ways to vegetables,
No one's got it all
What are you gonna do? They'll take it from you!
Man is really rough,
Always gonna roll,
Why you gonna scream?
And now they're gonna see.
Why you gonna scream?
Scream for prophecy.
You stop whining,
get some fining,
moquitoes die,
you're left to find.
Open hand are left behind,
baby dies,
you're still fine.
Why you gonna scream?
And now they're gonna see.
Why you're gonna scream?
You scream for prophecy.

Why do you scream?
I don't believe.
I don't wanna change my mind.
And I don't live to die!

Please daddy,
let me free.
Free!
Why do you scream?
And I ain't gonna see!
Please, make it real,
so you all go!

Where we're going from here?
Ready?
SLAM!

Way behind,
sick inside,
lose my mind,
gopher's time.
Once you strain,
girls start pain,
multiply a distant way.
Have you counted me?
No way I'm gonna see.
Why are you gonna scream?
No way I'm gonna see.
Why are you gonna scream?
Scream for prophecy.

Why do you scream?
I don't believe.
I don't wanna change my mind,
and I don't live to die.
Please daddy, let me free.
Free!
Why do you scream?
And I ain't gonna see!
Bring no halls to give,
and up jump means no other see!

Why do you scream?
Why?
Why do you scream?
Why?
Why do you scream?
And now I'm gonna see?
Why do you scream?
Scream for prophecy?
Why do you scream?
So now I'm gonna see?
Yeah!

 

 

Regarding the speaking voice of the singer, the "Where we're going from here?" is said in a high raspy voice, but in other songs, he's got a deeper voice, e.g. end of second song (but he's still singing there), or even this same song he's got a deeper end. I haven't yet found any other point in the same tape where he speaks.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by BucketEgg

[Rindmelon]

I will be working on seeing if i can clean these up going forward, but for me this clip of the end of Shallow comes as close to confirming it as we have gotten. when you isolate the vocals you can hear there are two voices

 

Seems pretty obvious who one of them is 

[Tom-Ass]

On 7/1/2024 at 12:09 AM, matt1313 said:

If Axl is worried about legacy, and not living up to AFD or UYI, he has nothing to worry about.  His legacy is that of shitting the bed at every turn since 1994, and wasting his incredible talents.  

We all CRAVE a new album from this band... that's been riding the nostalgia train since 2016... throwing us reworked CD leftovers, passing it off as 'new'.  That's lazy and a slap-in-the-face to all of the fans.  

And where are we in 2024?  At least where am I?  Excited about a terrible quality demo from the 80's that I've never heard before.  If modern GNR could churn out a few tunes like that, I'd be a happy camper.  But, no... what do we get?  A big nothing-burger at every turn.  

This shit isn't that hard.  Yet, here we are, with a 60 something Axl who will be dead or decrepit soon, unable to share his talent with the world.   He has little time to do so, and is just shitting it all away.   At least he's lining the coffers for the freeloaders, who will no doubt release anything Axl's been holding onto and cash in even more long after he's gone.  

I believe that is Axl on vocals and he sounds great. In his prime, there was no one greater. Unfortunately, that 40 year old demo is better than the last 4 songs the band has released and would most likely be better than anything they released in the future if they ever decides to. I would argue that it is better than anything on CD but that is another discussion. Too much time has been wasted and time hasn't been kind to Axl. He is a shell of his former self as a vocalist and performer.  I would rather them not release any more music at this point because it won't even come close to living up to the hype..